Joe Six-Pack came to my garage sale today (1 Viewer)

[DaveF]

Imagine if, for the sake of people like myself, Warner released a digitally-altered version of 'The Matrix' with Keanu replaced by Jar-Jar Binks in every scene.

I'd buy that!
Agent Smith: That is the sound of inevitability. That is the sound of your death, Mr. Anderson.
Jar Jar: Meesa...name...Jar Jar!
(Jar Jar leaps off the tracks, smashing Agent Smith against the tunnel roof)

 

[Anders Englund]

Jar Jar leaps off the tracks, smashing Agent Smith against the tunnel roof

Yes he will. But the only reason he leaps is that he gets terrified when he sees the train coming at him...
I overheard this guy complaining about the movie being cut, so it wouldn't fill he screen. I told him to hold his arms straight out. I said:
- Ok, now you're in widescreen.
Then, I ripped his arms off, and told him:
- Now, you're pan & scan.
Then it turned out he had owned a WS set, and was complaining about Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. So, I got very embarrased...
Seriously, I've never had this problem. Europeans seem to be accepting to WS. But this conversation crops up every now and then, and someone always makes the "but they have so small TV's, the WS imaged is unwatchable then".
Bull! They all own 14" TVs? The it might be true. But a 2.35:1 picture is far from unwatchable on TVs larger than 20". I've done that, and I know many others. Not a single complaint.
--Anders
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Link Removed
Ob me Deus cavet

 

[Robert Dunnill]

People like you and me have no business wanting modified versions of films just so that our display device can be filled with picture, its not our decision to make wether we like it or not.

From what I read, directors often shoot their films with an eye on them "looking good" in 4:3; the home video market is often just as important, if not more important, than the theatrical one.
That being said, it's very annoying for 16x9 owners like myself for so many collectible titles to be presented only in 4:3 format (Image is notorious for this). Even more annoying, many of the laserdiscs I bought are also p&s or 4:3, even though LD was supposed to have been a collector format.

RD

 

[Trace Downing]

I can't help linking the the OAR vs P&S issue to other issue that I've had to deal with all my life. The folks whos exasperation at the "proudly ignorant" J6Ps is not unique to this world.
Here's an allegory...
Consider this, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...and excuse me for politicizing this. Some "other" J6P arguments...
They'll recruit our children!
They're not trustworthy.
It's an abomination against God.
They're a biological error.
They'll ruin the sanctity of marriage.
They're a security risk, so we can't let them in the Army.
They spread diseases all over.
It's a choice!!!
Continued ad-nauseum...
There is a population in this world that is comfortable with their own point of views, regardless of how little those views are based on actual truth. None of those examples I've just given have any basis in the facts. Regardless they're used too much, even in this supposedly enlightened 21st century.
Welcome to the world of the Redneck folks.
We're surrounded by the proud to be ignorant, who know very little about some given subjects...and would like to know even less!
WS vs. J6P isn't going to be the only uphill battle many of us will have to fight for quite some time. It's too bad really.
BTW: I do think the IQ stats have a LOT to do with this, and many other issues.
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Ta-ra-ra boomsy-ay
Did you get yours today?
I got mine yesterday.
That's why I walk this way!

 

[Tyler Ruggeri]

Well, if anything I'm sure he'll enjoy his copy of Willy Wonka.
Tyler Ruggeri

 

[DaveF]

quote: Trace: Welcome to the world of the Redneck folks.[/quote]
Let's take care with our socio-economic stereotypes. Highly educated academics can be just as intellectually stiff-necked as the so-called "redneck" -- in fact, the highly educated can be much worse, since they believe they know more than you to begin with.
I.Q. has little to do with intellectual stubborness. It's not a usually a matter of "intelligence"; it's a question of humility. Is someone willing to admit (to themselves and to others) that they were wrong?
Many times, the least humble, and least accepting of change, are the high and mighty.
(and being in academics, I think know whereof I speak)
[Edited last by DaveF on August 11, 2001 at 11:57 PM]

 

[DaveF]

Part of the problem is that a verbal explanation without examples create a mental contradiction. We say "LB has more image than P&S" but people visualize fullscreen having more picture than LB image. Since people don't remember the visual details of what's often non-essential periphery imagery, they don't notice its absence during a P&S presentation.
The best thing, I think, is to do show a real life example. I did that this weekend with some friends, because I'd never actually seen the differences between LB and P&S. So before our movie, I put in my VHS (P&S) and DVD (LB) copies of "Toy Story", cued them up, and switched between them.
I found an early scene with a lot of variation across the entire frame, and compared the two versions. Sure enough, the VHS copy was missing parts of the picture at the edges. It was eye-opening for me, and my friends got to see clearly the difference between P&S and OAR.
Next, I want to compare the Jurassic Park DVD with my older P&S VHS copy.
Sure, some people will still not care. But I think that I, as a former pro-P&S'er, would have been swayed by a simple demonstration. And others would too, I believe.

 

[cafink]

Next, I want to compare the Jurassic Park DVD with my older P&S VHS copy.

Just for the record, "Jurassic Park" was shot flat and masked to 1.85:1 for theatrical exhibition. With the exception of CGI effect shots (not that there aren't a lot of them), you should see more image on the top and bottom of the frame, with minimal if any cropping on the sides.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

quote:

I remember reading that the median IQ in the United States is 100.

quote: Holy shit, is this true!?!
If so then I should go shoot myself now. I really thought it was more like 120.

The average could never be 120, because it's a normative number that is adjusted to ensure that 100 = the 50th percentile. On the Planet of the Super-Geniuses, the average IQ would be 100. On the Planet of the Sub-Moronic Lamebrains, the average IQ would be 100. Of course, an IQ of 20 on PSG would be superior to an IQ of 170 on the PSML, but within their own realms, 100 still equals "average".
With all this unrelenting talk about how OAR = director's artistic vision, I'm a little surprised that no one's discussed how much compromise goes into films. Very few - if any - movies have displayed the full fruit's of the director's intentions and desires, and they never will. I recognize that OAR is a simple building block, and it shouldn't be altered, but the militant adherence to the notion that anything other than OAR horribly alters the director's vision seems a little odd - MANY factors affect the director's vision.
I don't support non-OAR DVDs, but the fact remains that many alterations affect the director's intentions. P&S or open matte are just changes that occur after the movie has hit video. How many people protest films that have been altered due to studio influence? Or what about changes made after audience reactions from test screenings? I suppose no one ever should have owned the original theatrical edition of Blade Runner - it altered Ridley Scott's original ideas!
I don't like P&S or OM, but if someone else does, more power to them. As long as it doesn't affect my ability to get the same product in its OAR, I couldn't care less if someone else enjoys the fullscreen edition. It's not up to me or anyone else here to tell someone what they can and can't enjoy. Yes, it IS someone's choice to like fullscreen; you and I may strongly disagree, but that's the way it is. Just because fullscreen alters the "director's original vision" doesn't mean someone can't be happy with it, and that person will enjoy it with or without the endorsement of someone who protests it...
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Colin Jacobson
DVD Movie Guide
www.dvdmg.com
[Edited last by Colin Jacobson on August 12, 2001 at 01:16 AM]

 

[Richard Kim]

I don't support non-OAR DVDs, but the fact remains that many alterations affect the director's intentions. P&S or open matte are just changes that occur after the movie has hit video. How many people protest films that have been altered due to studio influence? Or what about changes made after audience reactions from test screenings? I suppose no one ever should have owned the original theatrical edition of Blade Runner - it altered Ridley Scott's original ideas!

And when a filmmaker actually makes changes to his films to reflect his original intentions (George Lucas) he gets universally bashed.

 

[Travis Hedger]

The so-called "J6P's" that everyone refers to here are just ordinary people like you or me and they have their own preference (in this case P&S to letterbox)and I personally feel that it is not right to bash them just because they don't see things your way.

Funny...I never ever hear J6P bitching about how the film takes up the space on a theatrical screen or that it is not more "square looking" as he would prefer it.

 

[RobertR]

And when a filmmaker actually makes changes to his films to reflect his original intentions (George Lucas) he gets universally bashed.

Actually, in Lucas' case, there's quite good evidence that he's lying when he claims he made the SEs to reflect his "original intentions". He's stated in the past that the originals WERE as he intended them to be, which makes many of us strongly suspect that the SEs were MUCH more of a marketing opportunity and chance to play with technology than an attempt to meet some "original intention".
Which goes back to the whole issue of "is it ok to alter the original film to satisfy a marketing stratetgy". I don't think it is.
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[Kami]

Let's remember that as HT "ambassadors" (if you like), we should teach, not berate.

Yeah but you can only teach and be ignored so much. I've met people that would DIE before learning the purpose of letterboxing. Eventually it just gets more fun to ignore them and/or laugh.

 

[Jan Strnad]

Colin wrote:

I don't like P&S or OM, but if someone else does, more power to them. As long as it doesn't affect my ability to get the same product in its OAR, I couldn't care less if someone else enjoys the fullscreen edition.

To a point, I agree with you.
Americans have a constitutional duty to honor minority rights. Our society is governed by the majority, but it also takes safeguards to protect against "the tyranny of the majority." Just because most people are Protestants, not everyone has to be Protestant.
No such constitutional guarantee exists in the capitalist economy. The bad can easily drive out the good, and that's what is happening with anamorphic, widescreen editions of DVDs. Because most DVD buyers prefer full screen, that's what the studios try to provide or think they should provide.
We can not let this erosion of quality go unprotested! We may be a minority, but if we're a minority that's willing to vote with our wallets we can still squeeze concessions from the studios in the form of dual-format DVDs and special, widescreen releases.
And basically, we only have to do it until widescreen TVs come into their own. Then J6P will be protesting the black bars on the side of his screen in formerly-fullscreen DVDs.
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http://www.mindspring.com/~atombrain/risenintro.html
Jan Strnad
author of Risen and
"The AtomBrain Guide to Letterboxing"

 

[Seth Paxton]

This is just like saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to go into Burger King and order a Whopper without onions.

No it's not. Burger King OFFERS THAT OPTION by THEIR CHOICE, not yours.
Again, go into Burger King and DEMAND a Big Mac. Then get back to me on how well that goes over. That is an option that they DO NOT OFFER, and amazingly they won't be nearly as receptive to your demand in that area.
If the DVD comes with P&S and LBX on each side, then ordering a Whopper without onions would be the same as choosing to watch the P&S side. If they give you the option on your purchase, then you can take advantage of it. But you have no right to expect them to do anything BEFORE YOU GIVE THEM YOUR MONEY.
You can say "F**k BK, if they won't give me a Big Mac, I won't eat there." But you can't say "This IS how you will run your business whether you like it or not." It's THEIR business to run, not yours.
It's THEIR film to make and sell, not yours.
You can't and shouldn't be allowed to force the artists to do what you want, just like the artist can't and shouldn't be allowed to force you to buy the product.
And expectations contrary to that are self-centered and inconsiderate.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Colin,
I thought the scale was shifted higher than that. I didn't realize that 100 was the pre-chosen median score. My memory had the scale shifted upward somewhat as I thought the impared levels began around 90, which is wrong of course.
I took the time to look up the scale and saw how far off my memory was.

 

[LARUE]

The whole burger analogy is terrible:
You can order a Whopper with onions & then remove the onions! But you can't get a DVD with cheese.
(However some do feel a little Special Sauce around the edges makes the picture smoother)
LARUE
If you think about it, Wendy's burgers have not been modified to fit your bun.

 

[Clinton McClure]

quote: Let's remember that as HT "ambassadors" (if you like), we should teach, not berate. [/quote]
There are several different ways to teach, as there are several different ways to learn. I believe what I did was not berating, but teaching by example. Sometimes, that's the only way you can get people to shut up with their holier-than-thou yapping for half a second and listen to your point of view. You have to do something unexpected.
If it makes you guys feel any better, I did swap the guy a buck from my own pocket for the one torn in three pieces. No harm, no foul. And, as Scott Strang (thanks for the support, Scott) stated, Scotch tape does work wonders.
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You bought fish boots...
[Edited last by Clinton on August 12, 2001 at 02:07 PM]

 

[Samuel Des]

Sometimes, that's the only way you can get people to shut up with their holier-than-thou yapping for half a second and listen to your point of view.

Think about what you wrote: in the above-scenario who really has presumed to be "holier-than-thou?" And looking for support for tearing up someone else's money "to teach them a lesson" in something as frivolous as a _hobby_ -- watching a freaking DVD!?

Look: we're all saying, "OAR." But some of us are saying, "DVD is not life-n-death." There is no question that pan-n-scan cheapens your DVD dollar; but DVD is _not_ film. Screen size may differ, but generally, you don't watch P&S in the movie house.
And why in the world do you think anyone OWES you his/her attention? Did we all sign-up for your course and not do our homework? Are you an heretofore unknown the world should acknowledge as the leading expert in home entertainment? Or are you just a fan, like the rest of us?
(Edited.)
[Edited last by Samuel Des on August 12, 2001 at 03:05 PM]

 

[LARUE]

Clinton,
are you the "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" Clinton?