JFK Assassination 40th Anniversary Thread (1 Viewer)

[David Von Pein]

That's curious....I hadn't realized that the mere presence of "separate posts" (covering varying matters of course) was considered a negative thing by some people. Most curious notion.

Bye Ric....

 

[Glenn Overholt]

What a fun discussion! It just brings back so many sad memories.

Anyway, I did see Jackie K. in some negatives, turned around and stretching her arm over the back of the convertable, to recover a spot on the trunk. This was supposed to be part of the back of JFK's skull. (sick thought)

No one has mentioned the 'magic' bullet that seemed to change trajectory every few milliseconds too. Having a 4th bullet would have explained it. As to where it went, well if his skull was lying on the trunk, then it went that-a-way. It could have easily rolled off of the back of the trunk and went unnoticed.

The thing about Oswald just getting lucky to work in the right building can easily be tossed out with a (and dare I say say this) A White House employee in the right position. Kennedy didn't personally select which city he was going to or the parade route, now did he?

The Warren Commmission report was laughed at the day after it came out, and there were piles of articles showing inconsistancies and items left out of it that were general knowlege. It was agreed by the commission to wrap this up and close it up for good with their report. They did the best that they could with what info they had, but they knew that it was in the best interest of the country to settle it and move on.

I think I did see a drawing that a doctor made showing which way the bullets went, but some changes had been made to it.

Conspiracy or not, you have to realize that every bit of information on this was picked up by the Feds, and once they got it, they could either add it to the pile or break out their Zippos. It will be interesting to see what comes out in the report.

Glenn

 

[Eric Paddon]

Actually Ric, the only reason why us LNers have to spread so much over so many posts is because too often we're having to give thoroughly detailed answers to a point made by a conspiracy buff in one sentence.

"As far as no one coming forward keep in mind that several "persons of interest" (David Ferrie, et al.), died rather suspicious deaths before they could blab, so that probably serves as a good deterrant to anyone involved thinking of spilling their guts even today."

Ric, I think you need to see this list which shatters the whole mythology on the "mysterious death" list.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm

Regarding David Ferrie, it might interest you to know that he died of natural causes. And Washington Post reporter George Lardner saw him the night before his death and Ferrie was still adamantly insisting no involvement with Oswald.

 

[Eric Paddon]

"Anyway, I did see Jackie K. in some negatives, turned around and stretching her arm over the back of the convertable, to recover a spot on the trunk. This was supposed to be part of the back of JFK's skull. (sick thought)"

Glenn, there is nothing on the trunk. And Jackie's recollection of just what she was doing were never consistent. She told William Manchester she never had any memory of crawling on the trunk. I think she was just in a state of shock and panicking and there was no rational explanation behind her actions at all having just seen her husband two inches from her being murdered.

"No one has mentioned the 'magic' bullet that seemed to change trajectory every few milliseconds too. Having a 4th bullet would have explained it."

Glenn, the bullet does not zig and zag. This is an old piece of buffdom mythology that got started because of an erroneous drawing in the Warren Commission report by a staff member who didn't have access to the original autopsy photos and x-rays to make his trajection calculations. Modern computer tests done by the HSCA, Failure Associates etc. have confirmed that the two were in proper alignment to be struck by the same bullet, and since it passed through two men, that means it would not have traveled in a perfect straight line but tumbled downward hitting Connally sideways (and the elongated scar on Connally's back confirmed this).

"As to where it went, well if his skull was lying on the trunk, then it went that-a-way. It could have easily rolled off of the back of the trunk and went unnoticed."

Um Glenn, JFK's skull was never on the trunk, and second a bullet that is fired from behind going on a downward trajectory as the first bullet that struck JFK did passing through his Adam's Apple is not going to end up on the trunk (unless it did a more dramatic zig-zag by making a 180 degree turn like in a Ricochet Rabbit cartoon). I think you're operating under the delusion that the head shot is the one that goes on to wound Connally which is not what us LNers argue. The bullet that struck JFK in the head shattered into fragments galore (two of which were ballistically traced to Oswald's rifle, but I digress). The single bullet is the one that goes through Kennedy's back out the neck and then into Connally who is sitting in front of him, exactly as a bullet fired from above on a downward trajectory would do by sheer common sense. If you want to say that bullet didn't wound Connally you have to explain why the interior of the limousine wasn't damaged by an intact bullet traveling that fast, and this you haven't been able to do.

"The thing about Oswald just getting lucky to work in the right building can easily be tossed out with a (and dare I say say this) A White House employee in the right position. Kennedy didn't personally select which city he was going to or the parade route, now did he?"

Um, Glenn the motorcade route was determined by John Connally, the other man who got wounded. And you are once again using speculation and innuendo as a substitute for evidence which means a standard of historical methodology that is pure garbage.

"The Warren Commmission report was laughed at the day after it came out, and there were piles of articles showing inconsistancies and items left out of it that were general knowlege."

The attacks usually came from men of dubious reputation like Joachim Joesten, Mark Lane etc. who on closer examination were found to have fudged the record and engaged in some lies far more serious then could ever have been attributed to the Warren Commission.

"Conspiracy or not, you have to realize that every bit of information on this was picked up by the Feds, and once they got it, they could either add it to the pile or break out their Zippos. It will be interesting to see what comes out in the report."

Glenn, all the material is out there. And you have to deal with the problem of the evidence not supporting your theories by coming up with something as simple as *evidence* of your own, not speculation or innuendo. Or else you end up sounding like O.J. Simpson's defense team.

 

[David Von Pein]

It will be interesting to see what comes out in the report.

What the.....?

What report??

 

[CharlesD]

We still don't know who Deep Throat is from Watergate, 30 years ago, & the person is supposedly still alive, so there's a secret that's been kept a long time.

No Deep Throat is an example of why large scale conspiracies are rarely a likely explanation. There was a "conspiracy" in the Nixon White House and it was exposed while it was still active... by "Deep Throat". Very few people know who DT was and so the secret has been kept. The crimes of the Nixon WH were exposed very quickly precisely because there were so many people involved.

 

[Cary_H]

Eric....I'm with you, but as I stated previously, I treat everything put forward that is supposedly factual, including what Menninger has to say, with a grain of salt. I am not suggesting he is right, and everyone else is wrong. I have no way of knowing what he states as fact is any more or less 'accurate' than the next guy's account.
I don't lose sleep over the subject, and just suggested Mortal Error as another person's viewpoint around the events of that day that might be of some interest to folks out there.
I can appreciate the monumental task of having to collect and interpret any and all pieces of the puzzle to arrive at 'the truth'. In my own mind, I have a problem wrapping my head around the so-called, official story we've been fed. Whatever it is that you accept is not for me to take issue with. l

 

[Grant B]

I am fairly postive my father was a CIA agent (or similiar agency) in the 60s. He 'died' in 1963 but many things point to him living longer...i.e. they never dug a hole for his coffin; his Drivers License came to my mother in the mail and the application date was after he died and a 1000 miles away.
Anyways Clinton asked the CIA to declassify and release files connected to JFK Assassination. When I did a search on the database his name came up on about a dozen documents. I requested them (you could only search on them - you couldn't read them online).
All the documents are nearly blacked off with black marker - only his name exists on most of them. You can see why even after the president orders information released and agencies comply in name alone, that the JFK Assassination is a mystery that will not be solved.

 

[Edwin-S]

Ah! You guys are going to be pissed when the FBI finally opens it's X-files, and reveals Mr. Spock to be the grassy knoll man!

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

I'm tied up with work right now, but perhaps I should host a "re-creation" shootout next spring. I actually own a M1938 Carcano of the same model, same armory, same year of production, and not that many serial numbers removed from the Lee Harvey Oswald special. More to the point, I have about 200 rounds of the original ammo for it made in Italy during WWII. Those rounds, like the rounds made in the US that Oswald reputedly used, have the right diameter - unlike some of the off-brand stuff that some conspiracy theorists have used. The off-brand stuff has bullets that are slightly undersized which cause poor accuracy.

As I have mentioned before, I thought it strange that LHO would have selected a Carcano when surplus rifles of well-known accuracy, i.e. Mausers, Lee-Enfields, and Mosin-Nagants, were available for about the same price. I understood better when I unpacked the Carcano: the damned thing is the size of a kid's BB gun. It would be ideal for hiding and sneaking into a building.

 

[David Von Pein]

To those that believe in a JFK conspiracy, please read the following information and then report back here and tell us how a conspiracy was accomplished given all these known pieces of fact.

And, above all, to those people who truly believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was in
NO WAY involved in the events of 11/22/63, how can you reconcile the facts below and still fit them in an "Oswald Is Innocent" scenario?

The evidence against Oswald includes these subtle tidbits...........

1.) Oswald definitely owned the rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD on 11/22.

2.) He also definitely owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the Tippit killing.

3.) Marina admits to having taken pictures of Lee with these weapons on his person.

4.) Wesley Frazier observed Oswald take a package into the Depository on the morning of November 22nd, 1963.

5.) Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and NO such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at 1026 N. Beckley. Nor was LHO seen carrying any type of package (rods or otherwise) out of the building after leaving work (unannounced to anyone) after the assassination. It can therefore be reasonably assumed that no rods ever existed.

6.) Oswald was seen working on the sixth floor that morning. Co-workers sent the elevator back up to Oswald on the 6th floor shortly before the assassination.

7.) Oswald's palmprint found on Carcano rifle. .... But, of course, this print is really just a "bonus" for the DPD in linking LHO to the weapon. For even without it, it's glaringly obvious that the weapon was Oswald's. It was proved the alias, Alek Hidell, was actually Oswald himself; and the order form from Klein's to purchase the mail-order rifle was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting, and sent to a Dallas P.O. Box that was used by him. Obviously, just LHO's owning the rifle doesn't prove he pulled the trigger. But doesn't just plain ordinary garden-variety logic dictate (with a pretty good percentage of probability) that it was the owner of said weapon, a Mr. Lee H. Oswald, that fired the shots on 11/22? The alternative is to believe that Oswald, for some unknown reason, handed over his Carcano to someone else for the purpose of using it. Why would he knowingly have done this idiotic act, knowing full well what might be the implications of doing so?! (And: to counter some people's claims that the rifle might have been "stolen" from Oswald in the days prior to the assassination, I contend that possibility is very remote at best. For, if the weapon was pilfered from Oswald's possession, we now have to believe a conspirator broke into the home of Ruth Paine, where the rifle was stored wrapped in a blanket, and swiped the Carcano from the garage, undetected by anyone. [Unless, of course, these plotters had the balls to physically wrest the weapon from Oswald's grasp while he was practicing with it somewhere. ] But there was never any report from the Paines that anyone had broken into their home at any time in October-November 1963.)

8.) Not ONE SPECK of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN OSWALD'S 6.5 MM MANNLICHER-CARCANO were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims. This one, to me, is simply impossible for conspiracy advocates to overcome, IF there had been (as some claim) up to 3 firing teams and 6 shots fired in DP on Nov. 22nd. HOW could every single scrap of ballistics evidence be completely eradicated from the 2 (or more) non-Oswald weapons almost immediately after the event?! Couldn't have been accomplished by even Kreskin!! .... Plus: This massive task of removing all non-Oswald wounds & bullets would most certainly have had to include the many doctors who worked on BOTH the President and Gov. Connally at Parkland. PLUS it would include the multitude of people who observed the body at Bethesda (unless you subscribe to the totally-implausible accounts of body-altering and all that business aboard AF1, or elsewhere before the body got to Washington. Again, even Kreskin would be amazed by such incredible sleight-of-hand). .... ALL ballistic evidence was traced back to being consistent with the weapon owned by Lee H. Oswald. The probability of this occurring IF there were multiple guns firing at the motorcade is probably so low to be considered virtually impossible.

9.) A vast majority of the Dealey witnesses said shots came from behind the President, in the direction of the School Book Depository building. Close to EIGHTY PER CENT! Now, HOW could THAT MANY people all be mistaken. Are we to actually believe the much-fewer number of ear/eyewitnesses that claimed to hear shots from the front? That is illogical on its face. If 8 out of 10 people say it happened a certain way....WHY would the claims of the minority 20% be taken as gospel? Makes no sense! .... In addition, over 95% of this 80% claim there were EXACTLY three shots. No more, no less. And three spent shells (co-incidentally?) were found in the "sniper's nest" on the sixth floor. Now, do we ignore the overwhelming 95% of earwitnesses on this crucial point? Or do we stretch the imagination and for some reason trust the lowly number of 5% of the people who claim 4 or more shots?

10.) After securing his job at the TSBD on October 16, 1963, Oswald only ONCE made a weeknight visit to Irving to visit his wife, Marina, who was at the time living with Mrs. Ruth Paine. That just happened to be on Thursday, November 21st. His rifle, which had been stored in the Paine's garage, is found missing the following day. (I'll grant you: since there were only 5 weekends between the time LHO took the Depository job and Nov. 22nd, this "unscheduled" weeknight visit to Irving might not be hugely significant. But it is one more factor creating the overall mosaic of Oswald's guilt.)

11.) Oswald left behind, presumably for wife Marina, his wedding ring and just about every dime he had to his name ($100+), on the morning of 11/22. Logic dictates that he felt he may not return.

12.) Oswald was the only Depository employee who had been inside the TSBD Building at the time of JFK's killing at 12:30 PM (CST) to leave work prematurely on 11/22. Why do you suppose this was? The day was only half over. (Several other Depository workers are known to have left after the assassination. However, these workers were known to have already been outside watching the motorcade pass by at the exact time the shots were fired.)

13.) Oswald, in flight, shoots & kills DPD Officer J.D. Tippit (multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald, with very few variations of description). Once more, are we to accept the minority of people who state: "It was a larger man" or "There were two people", rather than believe the majority of people who claim, uncategorically, that OSWALD SHOT TIPPIT?! Why does the minority get such a benefit of the doubt in so many aspects of this case....while the huge, eye-popping majority (which favor the Oswald-Did-It stance) is subject to such scrutiny. By sheer numbers, wouldn't the lowly 5% or 10% on this & that be scrutinized with a far more wary eye? I certainly would think so.

14.) WHY does Oswald kill Officer Tippit IF he's innocent of another crime just minutes earlier in Dealey Plaza? Answer: He would have no such reason to do so. If the Tippit shooting isn't one of the biggest reasons to shout from the rooftops "Oswald did it!!", then I don't know what would be.

15.) Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, in April of '63, barely missing out on killing his third victim during the year 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker." The Walker bullet is proven to have come from the Oswald rifle (consistent with being fired from a 6.5 MM Carcano). ..... Another KEY fact is the Walker attempt, as I think any reasonable person looking at the case objectively would concur. For, it displays in Oswald a definite tendency toward violent action on his part during the months leading up to November 22nd. To me, it's not a wild stretch of one's imagination to think that if this guy is willing to bump off Walker, then he might just set his sights a little higher when the perfect opportunity presents itself 7 months later. The fact that Oswald was a kind of loner, oddball, and rejected authority at just about every turn in life cannot be underestimated when talking of motive. He probably hated America (in general terms) for not being able to just come and go as he pleased to Russia and Cuba whenever it pleased his self-serving self in the months just prior to November 22. As a former Marine acquaintance of Oswald's once said: "He always thought he was a little better than everyone else." This statement speaks volumes, in my opinion, when gazing into Oswald's background and possible motive in the JFK murder.

16.) It was PROVEN, no matter what anybody WANTS to believe to the contrary, that three shots COULD be fired in the allotted timeframe from the Oswald rifle. The probability that Oswald had, in fact, 8.1 to 8.2 seconds to accomplish the shooting further increases the likelihood that Lee could have performed the deed. IF you believe the first (missed) shot hit a tree branch and ricocheted to strike James Tague by the underpass at approx. Frame 160 of the Zapruder film (as I, of course, do), then the total time between shots #1 and #3 increases to more than eight seconds, much more than the minimum required of 2.3 seconds (times two) to get off the three shots.

17.) Try as the CTers might, the Single Bullet Theory has still not been proven to be an impossibility. The Zapruder film shows that the SBT is more-than-likely the correct scenario of events that day. Kennedy & Connally are reacting to their initial wounds at virtually an identical time, at Z-Frame 224. Unfortunately, that damn Stemmons sign is blocking our view during what might be a critical point on the film. It can therefore NEVER be determined by anybody whether JFK was reacting to his throat/neck wound at a frame earlier than Z224. But, based on the available evidence, the SBT (judging by the reactions of the two victims in the limo) most certainly cannot be said to be false.

18.) While viewing the Zapruder film, I cannot see how anybody can say that the BACK of President Kennedy's head is blown away as a result of the head shot. It seems quite obvious while watching and freezing the film at various post-Z313 frames, that the entire rear portion of JFK's head remains intact throughout the shooting. The RIGHT-FRONT portion of his head is blown apart. Isn't it obvious that it's the FRONTAL portion of his skull that is being displaced by the swiftly-moving projectile? And if so, doesn't this demonstrate the actions of an object that's just been struck from BEHIND, not from the front? For, if shot from the grassy knoll (front right), WHY isn't there evidence on the Z-Film of massive head damage on the President's LEFT-REAR side of the head? Bullets explode out the EXIT wounds, don't they?

19.) It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed trekked, in 90 seconds, the distance across the sixth floor and descended the 4 stories in time to have been seen on the building's second floor. Oswald was a thin, lean-enough sort of 24-year-old lad (who had by November 22nd become used to lifting heavy objects around all day long on a two-wheeled cart at his job at the Depository). To me, it doesn't seem like a fairy tale to say that he would have been able to hide the weapon quickly and then negotiate the fours flights of stairs within a 90-second timeframe and NOT be out of breath, so he could encounter Officer Marrion Baker and Roy Truly on the second floor in a relatively composed and unrattled state at 12:31-12:32 PM (CST) on November 22nd. I wonder, too, considering what had just happened outside on Elm Street, just exactly how much detailed attention Mr. Baker or Mr. Truly might have been paying to Lee Oswald's "breathing" during that very brief meeting in the 2nd-floor lunchroom. I'd be willing to bet neither paid an ounce of attention to a detail like that at that exact stressful moment. Lee was just another employee in the lunchroom for all those two knew at 12:32 PM.

----------------------------------

I've no doubt that the many conspiracy theorists, who claim that Oswald had nothing whatsoever to do with the events of 11/22, could provide a lengthy list of their own, favoring (in their view) theories such as: "Oswald Was Framed", "Oswald Was A Patsy", or "Oswald Was A Figment Of Everyone's Imagination And Was Never Even In Dallas During His Lifetime". I'm sure the CTers would have no trouble denouncing my views as "More Warren Commission-related B.S.!".

However, while compiling your own CT list, and rejecting the vast array of evidence that convincingly shows that a Mr. Oswald pulled that trigger, I think it might be wise to just ask yourself ..... IS IT EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE THAT OSWALD COULD HAVE COMMITTED THIS CRIME ALONE?! (And every bit of evidence that has been unearthed to this point has shown that it WAS indeed possible for Lee Oswald to have performed this task.)

And if the answer to the above question is even a hesitant "Yes", doesn't that, by definition (at least partly in a CTer's mind) validate the belief of Oswald's lone participation in the JFK assassination?

For .... aren't hard facts and evidence always more believable than wild speculation and conjecture? And aren't many/(most) conspiracy theories created out of just
that -- speculation?

For anybody that actually took time out of the day to read my thoughts here, thank you.

And, in closing this tome post, let me just say that I truly believe the following ......

If Lee Harvey Oswald is Not Guilty of committing murder 40 years ago in Dallas, then we can safely say that John Kennedy and J.D. Tippit are still among the living.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Ok, I can see that we disagree. I don't think that anyone has posted that LHO was not at the TBD, or that he didn't fire any shots. That was never a problem.

(Can I say but?) (Thanks) If he was the only person, then I don't think that anybody would have been able to come up with these crazy ideas that someone else did it, or at the least, that someone else was involved in it.

If there wasn't any problem, why is it still next to impossible to get the papers on this - without any black marks on them? Who are they protecting 40 years later?

Oh, forget that. Who were they protecting when it happened?
Take the doctors, for instance. They're working and JFK comes rolling in. There is no way that they are going to screw this one up. Crap, the feds would be all over their asses for weeks, at the least. I won't deny that the medical records were changed, but prove that the changed records are the correct ones?

I think they call this rewriting history, and it happens all the time. I just got done watching Jessica Lynch, and she was rescued on her first attempt with no no firefight outside, let alone that our troops were firing blanks at the time.

About a month ago some French missiles were found in Iraq, with a manufacture date of 2003. I know that if I tried to look this stuff up, no record of it would be found. It isn't that I don't like my country, because I do, but shit happens, and they do their best to fix it.
After all, it is for our own good.

Oh, and the report I was referring to is the TV special on ABC on the 20th (back on the 1st post).

Glenn

 

[Eric Paddon]

"(Can I say but?) (Thanks) If he was the only person, then I don't think that anybody would have been able to come up with these crazy ideas that someone else did it, or at the least, that someone else was involved in it."

Glenn, all someone has to do is lie about the evidence to get a conspiracy theory started. When the Warren Commission report consists of 26 volumes of testimony and evidence and conspiracy books usually consist of trade paperbacks that are easier for the average reader to digest then 26 volumes of testimony and evidence, then what happens is the average person thinks the conspiracy author is presenting a truthful picture of what is to be found in those 26 volumes, and the conspiracy author who has an axe to grind and a buck to make off his efforts is usually aware that the average person who reads his book is not going to go down to the library and consult those 26 volumes to see things for himself. He is going to accept on faith that the conspiracy buff is presenting a truthful picture of what is in the evidence, and it is because of that factor that conspiracy questions that had no business being asked in the first place, get asked and are allowed to take root in the mass public consciousness.

"If there wasn't any problem, why is it still next to impossible to get the papers on this - without any black marks on them?"

Because Glenn, there is something known as a right of privacy for (1) how intelligence sources are gathered and (2) people whose names got mentioned in a report but who were totally innocent of any wrongdoing. That is standard operational procedure. Do you think we have a right to know the names of people who were asked if they had connections to the assassination and it turned out they didn't? I don't. I'm only interested in the relevant physical evidence which has been out there for all to see since 1964 when the Report came out.

"Oh, forget that. Who were they protecting when it happened?
Take the doctors, for instance. They're working and JFK comes rolling in. There is no way that they are going to screw this one up. Crap, the feds would be all over their asses for weeks, at the least. I won't deny that the medical records were changed, but prove that the changed records are the correct ones?"

Glenn, what are you talking about? There are no changes in JFK's autopsy photos and x-rays. 19 forensic pathologists have studied them and they uphold the Warren Commission's conclusions. Quit the speculation and start citing some specific relevant evidence.

BTW Glenn, why do you have a problem responding to the points I made with regard to the physical evidence a few posts ago? And why doesn't it give you pause about the lack of truthfulness from conspiracy authors?

 

[John Spencer]

Just so everyone's on the same page, JFK is living in a retirement home along with Elvis, and they are currently in the process of saving the world from a terrible evil.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Just so everyone's on the same page, JFK is living in a retirement home along with Elvis, and they are currently in the process of saving the world from a terrible evil.

Right on, Bubba!

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Nice points, but I have never read any books regarding JFK - none at all.

The questions started popping up the day after he was laid to rest. Things might be a lot different now if it weren't for Ruby. Again, you are concluding that Ruby shot him on his own. Security aside, if our current president got shot, would you pack a gun, go into the cop shop and shoot him? Are you insane?

Part of the reason that the Warren Commission was formed was to stop the rumors, but by the time it came out, it was way too late to do that.

As for the doctors - http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/medical.htm

I am sure that there are other pages that are on the other side, but don't really have any need to go through those again.

And as for blackening out names, that is outright silly. Let's say that they interviewed you. For the last 40 years, you haven't told anyone about that? Is it such a deep dark secret? Were you told at gunpoint that if yoou say one word about this to anybody, you and everybody you know, will be killed?

The majority of the people that had anything to do with that are well into their 60's now. Most are probably retired - or dead, but again - it happened 40 years ago, who are they protecting if there is nothing to hide?

Glenn

 

[Eric Paddon]

"The questions started popping up the day after he was laid to rest. Things might be a lot different now if it weren't for Ruby. Again, you are concluding that Ruby shot him on his own. Security aside, if our current president got shot, would you pack a gun, go into the cop shop and shoot him? Are you insane?"

Glenn, sorry you have trouble accepting the facts but that's how they are and you can't change them just because they don't fit into your predetermined conclusions of how they *should* have been. Ruby's movements show he shot Oswald only on impulse. His behavior of the preceding two nights show he was upset about it and his whole life shows he was not very well in the head. Address the specifics as how they relate to Jack Ruby and what is known of him.

"As for the doctors - http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/medical.htm"

Glenn, that's a site that backs up the Warren Commission findings and the things on it refer to how the evidence supports those findings and debunk conspiracy assertions.

"And as for blackening out names, that is outright silly. Let's say that they interviewed you. For the last 40 years, you haven't told anyone about that? Is it such a deep dark secret?"

Glenn, just because *you* would tell does not mean that others would. And I don't know about anyone else, but I damn well would not want it publicized that I was interviewed or the target of an investigation for which I was completely innocent. The government is *supposed* to respect those rights to privacy and there is no reason why the people should have a right to know that kind of information. In addition, the agencies involved have a right to protect other materials.

But instead of focusing on these silly trivialities Glenn, why don't you focus on the specific physical and medical evidence I've pointed out that you just won't respond to? Not to mention the matter of conspiracy author duplicity which is a far more serious matter then the names of innocent people being blacked out of a report?

 

[David Von Pein]

I don't think that anyone has posted that LHO was not at the TBD, or that he didn't fire any shots. That was never a problem.

It's not a "problem" as far as YOU are concerned. OK.
But my comment along those lines was referring in "general" to the large numbers of individuals who DO indeed believe that Oswald was in no way involved. (Not necessarily referring to anyone here at HTF.)

And, just to clarify, I never said that any CTers claim that Oswald was not at the TBD. THAT assertion would, indeed, be foolish (ever for a CTer). For we KNOW he was in the building on 11/22. It's just that many, many conspiracy promoters seem to truly believe that he was totally innocent, of both the JFK and Tippit murders.

The physical evidence completely debunks, of course, such CT notions.

 

[DanFe]

Conspiracies do not always suggest that everyone involved in the conspiracy was actually a shooter (as in the case of Booth and his group of conspirators). I have no problem in the idea that Oswald was the lone shooter. I do not accept that he was alone in the conspiracy to commit the murder (I do believe there were others behind the scenes).

 

[Glenn Overholt]

(I don't know if we can keep this going for another ten days)!

No, I do not have any physical evidence on me. If I once had some, I am sure that the feds would have picked it up long ago.

I want to go to the marker pen on reports first. I won't argue that some witnesses that are still alive elected to have their name blackened out. They would all have to be witnesses if there wasn't any conspiracy, but outside of that, what else would be blackened out? The date and the time? The original route? Where the Pope was on that day?

Now assume for a minute that you are gathering materials for the Warren Commission Report. You come across something that just doesn't fit in. You take it to your boss, (who has a higher calling) - and he looks at it and says, "No, this guy is a crackpot. This is just all screwed up." Breaks out the Zippo. All gone! There is nothing to stop him from doing that after you are gone, of course.

Again, I don't know what was in the CT books, and I am sure that some of them were based upon previous books too, that is only natural. You just do some additional research on another author's chapter and do it again.

I brought up that medical page because it mentioned that some of the papers had been 'corrected'. Yep, I bet they were. Someone explained to them how they had to look, though, just to make sure that it got to the WC correctly.

It is easy to state that I knew this is true because it might be in the WC book, and goes back to everyone involved to have told the absolute truth. If authors can make stuff up, why can't the WC witnesses?

It is like the report on Ruby being really upset. Can you swear that information is correct? Ok, stop.

(Space for a pause)

Let's turn this around, just for kicks. Let's say that Ruby was involved, and was set up to be the hitman for LHO. Let's say that he already knew that he had cancer and was going to die anyway.

Ok, so Ruby is part of this. After it happens he pretends to get really pissed, and starts screaming and yelling about what a jerk LHO is in the nightclub, and then shoots him.

(Witness) Yes sir mister fed, Jack was really mad. I've never seen him so mad. I almost can't blame him. I'm pretty mad myself.

The witness told the truth. It is gospel.

Oh, and they talked to Ruby later, in the hospital. Why would he fess up and tell them that xxx was involved?

Ok, maybe I have seen too many spy flicks, but if there was a conspiracy, what makes anyone think that our government knows the whole truth?

Glenn