I've fallen in love with a pit bull (1 Viewer)

[Scott McGillivray]

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought that my ex was dating someone here!

 

[Lance Nichols]

My wife reminded me of the following link...

Toronto Humane Society AnimalTalk

Of note, are th following quotes

"It is paramount that children are taught how to communicate with a dog, without hitting or yelling, respecting the dog's space and being allowed to share in the daily care of the dog. Even so, a child should never be left unsupervised with any dog. A dog, no matter what breed, should never be on the top rung of the hierarchy ladder. A relationship of respect depends on the dog knowing who is boss, and that can NEVER be the dog."

 

[Justin Lane]

I personally would never own a pit-bull. Owners right around the corner from me let their dog loose and it killed a local farmer's cow. The dog literally ripped the lower neck and jaw off the cow killing it almost instantly. Any dog that has the potential to inflict such damage on another animal, or much less human is not worth the risk.

J

 

[D. Scott MacDonald]

It is paramount that children are taught how to communicate with a dog

While I agree with the sentiment, young toddlers are pretty hard to teach, and are not prone to logical thought.

As a side note, my friends daughter (age 3) was recently attacked by somebody elses dog that they left chained in front of a store. The family walked past the dog, and for no apparent reason it decided to give their daughter a permanent scar on her face. When the dog's owner (human companion for the PC) came out of the store, she swore that her dog would never do anything like that. Of course this story is completely irrelevant as the dog was not a pitbull, but I guess it does show that people with dogs have to be responsible and assume that their dogs are capable of doing bad things under the right circumstances.

 

[Greg_R]

The problem is that Sally is such a cow that she's going to do everything in her power to keep me from getting this dog, including badmouthing me to the shelter or trying to encourage one of her friends to try to adopt him instead.

Hmmm, how many hours has she volunteered at the shelter? She will likely be laughed away. Adopt the dog because you want to... not because someone's actions are pressuring you into the adoption.

 

[Jason_Els]

A dog, no matter what breed, should never be on the top rung of the hierarchy ladder. A relationship of respect depends on the dog knowing who is boss, and that can NEVER be the dog."

Can't reinforce this enough. Breeds that are prone to be dominant will challenge your for dominancy and you may not even know it. If they come to believe they run the house it will ruin your life, the dog will become a nuisance, and you're house could be wrecked. Don't send mixed signals to the dog by allowing some behaviors but not others. Pit Bulls are dominant by nature. This doesn't mean being cold and aloof with the animal, just reinforcing good practices.

Some dog behaviors you might not recognize as authority challenges:

• Sleeping on your bed or having a sleeping place higher than you. Don't let a dog sleep on your bed with you. On the couch with you, OK so long as you don't lie down. Sit up. Always make the dog surrenders its place to you particularly if it's where you usually sit.
• Going through doors before you do. Always prevent a dog from going through doors before you do. The dog should follow you.
• Don't let the dog eat before you do. Always have the dog eat after you do. Doesn't have to be a big meal if you feed him at hours different from yours. Eating a cookie before feeding him will send the right message.
• Leash pulling. This is a big challenege as is the next. Don't allow the dog to pull on the leash while walking. Train him to heel properly and be firm but kind in your reprimand.
• Tug-O-War games. This is a huge no-no. Don't get into these because it's a big win for the dog if the dog wins. Fetch is much better as it involves the dog releasing something to you acknowledging where you are in the hieracrchy. If you inadvertantly get into a tug-o-war game then just drop the object, walk away, and withold attention from the dog for a few minutes. Don't look at him, don't pet him, just ignore him. That will send a message that such behavior won't be rewarded.
• ALWAYS responding to the dog's desire to play. Every so often your dog will want to play with you. That's cool. Once every few approaches though tell the dog no and don't give in! This reinforces the proper hierarchy and is good for maintaining a healthy owner-dog relationship.

Dominant breeds are great dogs to have but they will follow your cue so be careful if you get into an argument with someone because the dog can become more easily agitated than more passive breeds. Once you know how your dog interacts with you on a daily basis you'll know what to do.

That this dog has some "behavior problems" leads me to wonder if his previous owners let the dog become dominant. Once dogs do they can become destructive when challeneged. Peeing on the bed, ripping up furniture, grabbing food from the counter or table, ignoring commands, growling, or refusing to surrender sleeping or sitting furniture, are all symptoms of a dog who thinks it runs the show. Don't get into that position because it's hard to get the alpha status back. Some dogs that have been challenged once they believe they are the alpha will bite or growl if you try and take back your status. Don't let it happen in the first place.

I adore dogs and wish I could have one where I am. I've had two and they were immeasurable friends to me while they were alive. Be aware they are an enormous responsibility though what with vet bills, food bills, feeding and walking times, house cleaning, and all manner of other things you just never think of. Cats are much easier. You MUST always think of your dog first whenever you go someplace or do something. Dogs like routine and get distressed when it's upset. Don't even think about a dog unless you can go around for days beforehand wondering what would you be doing now if you had a dog to care for.

I suggest you get a few books on dog behavior and training. It's not true that, 'old dogs can't learn new tricks'. Any dog can be trained and become a responsible household member if it has not suffered abuse early in its life. Shelter dogs are tough since you almost never know the dog's history. I recommend the books put out by the monks of New Skeet. These guys know dogs and their training is exemplary. Check out their website at Raising Your Dog with the Monks of New Skeet. Their training and behavioral programmes don't just apply to puppies. They have information on training adult dogs too. Reading their books is enlightening and wonderful resources to turn to time and again. I also suggest getting a book on dog health so you can recognize symptoms and know what to do in emergencies. Learn these books. Knowing how to care for a dog before you adopt one is essential.

If you are serious then I would offer to take home the dog on a trial basis, say for two weeks or so, to be sure he'll fit in with the cats and your lifestyle AND pending a good bill of health from a vet. You may want to overlook health figuring what's that got to do with love, but when my second dog, Tristan, got cancer it cost me $13,000 in vet bills at The Animal Medical Center in New York (the kindest, sweetest, most wonderful people in the world), the finest animal hospital in the country outside of Cornell, and the requisite time to drive into the city to take him there and back for chemo and surgeries. He didn't make it despite the effort :frowning: but he wasn't in pain at the end and I don't begrudge him a penny (I still miss him terribly ).

I hope it works out for you Rain, whatever you decide. A dog would certainly temper your innate "superiority" (dare I say arrogance?) :p) as mine did with me, and it's a great way to meet guys (or girls, as the situation warrants). Good luck and keep us posted!

P.S. - The only dog I would trust unsupervised with a very young child is a Newfoundland/Landseer. They are amazing with children. The ultimate omega breed.

 

[Joe Spratley]

Pitbulls were never bred to be aggressive to humans. Actually the opposite when they used to fight dogs in the pits the handlers had to be able to retrieve the dogs safely so they were only bred to be aggressive to other dogs. However, dog temperament has a large component centered in genetics. The pitbull gene pool has taken a serious hit with all of the ignorant people and thug type people breeding them. A good breeder carefully evaluates temperament and physical characteristics in order to preserve and better the aspects of the breed. When a dog that has poor temperament or nerve problems is bred that is usually passed on, factor in the poor temperament with the ignorant thug types that want to have one as a status symbol and that is why there is the problems. Check out www.leerburg.com there are a lot of good articles there on temperament, genetics, dominance and other related issues that will help you in deciding if it is a good choice or not but from what you said it sounds like he has a nice temperament.

The animal shelter should allow you to adopt him. You have proven yourself worthy of having him. So what if you don't have a fenced in yard. Who would be a better owner, you who has the time and love to devote to the dog or someone that is just going to throw him in the backyard and ignore him but because they have a fence they allow them to adopt him? I know most animal shelters have good intentions but sometimes they are too picky and turn away good owners for minor issues. I encountered this and when I saw all the trouble I had to go through and the issue with the fence etc. I just went out and bought one (two actually, labrador and german shepherd )from quality breeders.

As far as the co worker goes I think you learned a lesson there. Don't tell people at work about your personal life. Most people at work are not your friends and the one's that you think are your friends probably aren't either.

 

[Drew Bethel]

Go for it Rain. And print a copy of Jason Els' reponse, he pretty much summed it up beautifully.

We got a pit bull named Sugar who is almost 9 months old now to hang out with our dingo and so far it's been great. Yeah, they have about one or two snarling fits a week but nothing serious.

I never thought how much work a second dog would be...especially a teenager/older pup. Sugar has more energy than any dog I've seen. And they will jump and run you over in their happiness to see you.

I recommend some basic training and lot s of excercise...there are plenty web sites for clicker training, like this one:

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/dog.htm

Sugar has been a great addition to our family and we wouldn't change a thing.

 

[Jason_Els]

I did a little more research. I'm not sure if you're within the city limits proper of Vancouver but if you are the city has already declared the breed to be, "vicious" (their words, not mine). When anyone is visiting your home the dog needs to be kept in a room away from them and when off your property you must use a muzzle.

As to the landlord not knowing that you're getting a pit bull, well, I don't know Canadian law but since it's nearly all based on English common law like 49 of 50 US states are, then yes, you have a responsibility to tell her it's a pit bull as having one in her building could adversely effect her insurance and legal liability. You must also tell your insurance company if you have renter's insurance.

You can read Vancouver's dog laws at City of Vancouver Licensing & Inspections: Animal Control.

Again, good luck Rain!

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Am I the only one who was just a little scared to open a thread with this title?

Regards,

Joe

 

[Matt Pelham]

You realize Pit Bulls eat babies right?

 

[Jack Shappa]

You guys arguing that Pit Bulls don't bite as often as Cockerspaniels missed the point. A Cockerspaniel will cannot rip a cow's head off in 5 seconds.

Doesn't matter how well you discipline the dog. The breed is still BY NATURE dominant. A child at his eye level is considered a challenge and can provoke attack.

I hate it when I hear arguments like "I've had scruffy for 10 years and he's never bitten anyone". This does not make the dog incapable of biting someone, and raises red flags about the owner's attitude.

Speaking of dog training, my mother-in-law had a Sharpei (often called the Chinese pitbull) and it was obvious the dog did not consider her the leader of the "pack". The dog was completely subservient to myself and my dog trainer friend, but would not mind her. She was what I refer to as a "blind animal lover" that "loved" the animal too much to do even what was best for it, and would put this dog's welfare above that of her own grandchildren. This "harmless" animal nearly ripped the other dog, a Pomeranian, to bits, even though the two dogs had been together without problems for many months. Needless to say this dog went bye-bye before I would allow any grandchild visits.

- Jack

 

[Brian Lawrence]

I have no doubt that you would be great with the dog, but from what I gathered in this thread, I would suggest that you perhaps consider not getting this dog.

A small apartment just may not be a good environment for a large dog, He may be very sedate and mild mannered now, but shelters can have that effect on dogs. I'm not saying this dog will turn into some foaming at the mouth killer or anything like that, but once it adjusts to a loving home it would become a lot more active and need some room to run around when he gets bored or restless.

Also for the sake of the dog, you must make it very clear with your landlord, what kind of dog this is, before making any commitments. All it takes is for one person to complain and you could quickly find yourself in a situation where you either have to relocate or get rid of the dog. It sounds like you are already attached to this dog, Trust me after living with it for a while it will be even harder to part with him, It could be emotionally devastating for the dog as well.

I'm also a little leary about having a pit-bull around cats. I don't believe that pitbulls and rotties are inherently meaner that most other dogs, but they can be a little more reactionary and unpredictable in certain circumstances. I don't think the dog would just one day decide to eat the cats. However most cats can have a very mischievous sense of fun that that could suddenly anger an otherwise friendly pit bull.

 

[Robert_Gaither]

Personally Rain I don't know you but I'll bet you'll make a better owner than most because you're someone who not only will ask for advice, research, and seems to be compassionate (based on your voluntary work at the shelter). What I'm going to state may go against what most of the board is suggesting but I'd recommend take it home and adopt it and if you don't think you can manage return it (at least you'd give it a shot, would only lose the initial money of the initial shots, dog food, accessories, and maybe a return fee to the shelter).

Personally I only walk my dog on my days off (and you stated you're going to do it maybe 3-4 days a week) due to the luxury of owning a fenced yard. Contrary to much information given by non-owners on this board the pitbull is no more aggressive but in reality is much more powerful (jaws), enduring, and have a higher threshold for pain than most dogs (if you'd seen some of the things my friends kids have done to my dog, you'd believe her to be a saint). The difference between your situation and mine are simply I had my dog since she was a pup of 6 weeks and to a certain point had more input on her development, unfortunately we don't know about the situation you may enter. I've owned seven dogs in my life and the pitbull was hands down the nicest (owned a peke-poo, pekenese, shitzu-poo, chinese pug {hands down the meanest}, doberman {believe it or not the second nicest}, and a different pitbull).

This part is for anyone wanting to own a dog, all breeds have a part of wildness in them and should always be monitored when around small children, no exception to this rule, the larger breeds are usually more gentle but powerful and the smaller makes up for this in viciousness. Though I disagree with some of the earlier posts (I've played tug-o-war with every dog I've owned, let them sleep on my bed, and have fed them before me and yet my dogs don't constantly challenge my authority) there is still much wisdom there and it's definately better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Lance Nichols]

Robert, talk about high pain thresholds, Major has run head long into walls, fences, and the occasional car with no damage to himself, unlike the walls, fences, and occasional cars....

I did read one owner's story about him playing with his staffie, who ran down a ball, smacked into a wall, and they heard something "snap". After checking the dog thoroughly, they found out that the snap, was a 2x4 stud in the wall....

Oh, and nice thread fart Michael.

 

[Mary M S]

Rain, I’ve seen your moniker enough to feel your commitment towards judicious responsible commitment to issues you turn your attention towards. I’ve had the pleasure to be around animals of all sorts throughout my life, and have seen a individual animal bond more readily towards one human over another (indeed greatly prefer one over another) when two are available. Having personality quirks as do humans this occurs very frequently with dogs.

If Red is responding well to you (as you are drawn to him) that’s a third the battle with a shelter acquisition.
Regarding your problem with Co-worker (to be known as Sally), after her few second evaluation of Red what are her specific objections? How much authority or weight does her opinion carry at this shelter. Who would make the final determination?

Have you ever owned a large breed (or many dogs) during your growing up years? People amorphntrise their pets and in my personal opinion for valid reason. I have owned dogs through my life who according to their temperament and intelligence level have most definitely been capable of displaying and reacting with rage, humor, shame, remorse, and deep devotion and love and even a wicked sense of humor.

The only time I ever come close to having an issue with an animal is when I attribute higher thinking humanistic rationales behind these obvious displays of emotions that my non-sapiens companions also feel but handle differently. . They feel and react; I tend to think a little deeper with a capacity for greater (or more lawful ) control over the possible reactions these same emotions might possibly solicit from me.

My Rottelier/Lab mix had incident years ago which devastated me, when he got out and with the female husky next door roamed (most unfortunately) into my neighbor’s yards whose long hatred for all canines was freshly reinforced upon this particular day. He tried to slaughter her cat. He almost succeeded but went belly down and relinquished his acquisition when I like a screaming banshee leaped the fence in defense of the feline. I was sure of my dog’s reaction once my presence was made known to him but unsure of the Husky’s, luckily she followed his lead as Alpha that day, and responded as he to my sudden arrival. Blood lust is a dangerously hard process to interrupt once engaged.

I felt so ‘betrayed’ by my constant companion who on a day to day basis appeared to live in constant dedication to the job of acquiring attributes that I admired and praised. Having spent years watching him read and react to my implied approval or disapproval of his behavior. I thought we were well cemented in the “rules as Mary the alpha female sets them” For years with a nod from me, if my cat was battling a rival to his own backyard space, the dog would fly out the door - leap over my cat who felt his protector coming, like a freight train from behind and would obligingly flatten like a pancake while the dog sailed over his back to chase the offending trespasser back over the fence. Although equipped with the speed and agility to do so he never laid a tooth on the challenger intruder. The ‘game’ was to force it away, to protect HIS cat…part of his pack. A strange cat moseying through the yard but minding his own business would never have been chased or bothered, only a cat who had the gall to MESS with his cat.

I did not think it possible for him to have deliberately tried to KILL the neighbor’s beloved. You get complacent in your bond with a very close pet forgetting about the age old roots of his forebears, his genetics and the siren lure of pack mentality. I was furious as one human can be with another over a deliberate betrayal. I felt as if my child had suddenly grown up to become a serial killer.

Wrong and I knew it; he did what he did because the female started it (according to the eyewitness testimony of the neighbor). She decided to kill the cat, once engaged he stirred and took over to finish the job. This he would never have initiated when alone and past his puppyhood when I set the law for him concerning ‘cats’, without the pack mentality trigger the female husky provided.

Study wolf naturalists, pack mentality and react accordingly when you ‘teach’ your new companion what you…as the alpha male allow or not as appropriate behavior for your ‘family’ pack and the larger extended pack of humans which surround you. Guard against a surprise reaction due to an unknown history and pattern of response laid down before your time with him, for the first weeks, months, and years. Responsibly control, any situation which would allow a pack type blood lust reaction a fight or flight dilemma to arise in new and unfamiliar territory, a fear biting or aggressive response learned in his prior and uncharted past as a protective responses to something which has made him wary and insecure.
If the dog has not been ‘spoilt’ by his past, its amazing what love and kindness and responsible ownership can accomplish, if he has been abused or frightened and hungry and neglected in his past, he will love you even more passionately for your controlled and compassionate care of him. (My mother has a large bred adoptive who is this way).

Don’t ever forget his roots, (caninae..pack…survival). set up your early days to control these natural responses and what might possibly stress him or provoke a aggressive response. Teach him your ways and bar and guard him from situations, which could cause non-human approved behavior.
Be aware that his reaction in your presence when meeting strangers, other animals might be reassuring but will not necessarily be his demeanor when alone or escaped.

Humans who do not bother to read their pet’s body language when in company with other people are not being responsible pet owners. It is exceptionally rare for a dog (unless falling subject to dementia due to a biological defect) to suddenly and viciously bite a child who might be visiting at a grandparents or friends. Domesticated dogs are far enough removed from their ancestors that an attack will not occur without a warning sign which if noticed and acted upon would have prevented the entire incident. The dog will first display stress and unease and a desire to remove itself from the source of concern. An alert owner will interject to slow the situation down to a comfortable level and reassure the dog during a novel or over stimulating experience, or remove the dog physically if he cannot be conditioned to respond appropriately in a given set of circumstances.

Every succession adoption story I have ever seen particularly with a higher level of inappropriate previously learned behaviors to overcome, has hinged on the fact that the human half of the equation was smarter than your average Joe. Capable of intuitiveness, highly observant to cause and effect, willing to devote long hours in the beginning year, and if lacking in knowledge of canine motivators, capable of acquiring an understanding of that psychology.

Some humans think of a pit bull, Rotty, GS, Chow, etc - as a weapon, to be trained and held at ready. They are making a fatal mistake.. A dog (any size) raised in a loving family will attempt to ‘protect’ if the need arises. He will read his family and act accordingly. Instead the first 2 years of a puppies life should be spent socializing with as many children, elderly, ethnictisites, mailmen (the uniform), other species, parks and Outdoor cafes, pet store trips etc. When acquiring an older dog, the first months should be spent bonding in a secure environment before introducing outside novel situations. With heavy socialization, when the instinctive deeply rooted protective defensive mechanisms or simple joy of the hunt instincts are triggered, the behavior will be more in line with what is acceptable to their human companions. A dog raised in this manner is more likely to save a life than to threaten one, or at the very minimum if never placed in a situation where it is capable of helping during a crisis, enrich our lives with a devotion which is unique to ‘Mans best friend”alone.

 

[Jason_Els]

Domesticated dogs are far enough removed from their ancestors that an attack will not occur without a warning sign which if noticed and acted upon would have prevented the entire incident.

Not entirely. You never want to surprise a dog. I would bet that the dog left outside was surprised by that child. Crowded situations can be confusing for dogs as they have a hard time singling out the scent of people around them. Having the eyes covered by hair or loud noises of traffic around only confuses the animal more. Add to that the stress created by being tied-up and it's not a good combination. I would bet that had the dog been in a quieter setting with fewer people around it would have reacted far differently.

Crowds are stressful for dogs which is why early socialization is SO important. Ideally a puppy should be going to puppy preschool and hang out with other dogs and their owners to lessen the stress of unfamiliar people and surroundings. It's important to take a puppy out (after shots) to see the world in its different forms, get used to riding in cars, and dealing with strange people and dogs. This will reduce dog-to-dog aggression and behavioral problems around strangers.

My brother had a sweet little whippet/black lab mix and one day she was sleeping in the cab of his truck when my brother sent someone to get something out of the cab. Maddy, his dog, was like most black labs, 'Want to break in to my house? Here. Let me get the door for you.' A useless watchdog but she was startled when she woke-up to find a strange hand coming into the cab. She launched after that guy, trying to bite him, growling and barking viciously. He got the door closed before Maddy could take a few fingers off but neither my brother or myself could believe her reaction until we went over what happened:

• She was asleep. Dogs have an inbred reaction to sudden waking and she didn't realize quickly enough that this person meant no harm.
• She was in a confined place where she was effectively cornered. Tying-up a dog invokes the same reactions since they can't fly, they must fight.
• The person was not part of her normal family. He was a visitor she knew only from being somewhere outside her home territory.
• The truck cab was part of her family's territory.

When we went over this my brother realized how stupid it was for him to send this guy out to the truck. The guy didn't help matters any either. He didn't alert the dog to his presence by gently waking her before he opened the door. It took Maddy less than a minute to come to realize who he was and turn back into a pussycat but again those few seconds could have resulted in this guy getting a severe bite on the hand. If he had been bitten my brother, and the dog, would have been responsible. The law is always against the dog except in cases of home intrustion. She also couldn't smell him behind the door so she couldn't use her primary sense to verify her eyes. It was also winter so all the windows were closed except for the rear window.

Again, it's a situation of trying to place yourself in the dog's position. An experience that didn't make much sense at first, came to make perfect sense once we put ourselves in Maddy's place. Gotta do that with dogs and when in social situations with strangers or outside of the home it's essential not to put the dog in a position where it will be stressed or forced to defend itself.

I get along with dogs really well. I've had guard dogs amaze their owners by walking right up to me wagging their tails wanting to greet me like a long-lost pack member. Think like a dog does and it's not hard. Keeping you and your dog safe in all kinds of situations requires you to develop this ability as best you can. If your dog bites or goes after someone it could harm that person but it will always end-up bad for the dog even if, in the dog's mind, it was justified. Again, with dominant breeds it's more essential because they are less prone to be passive than more submissive breeds but it's true for any dog to some extent.

Besides the books, I urge you to get a copy of A Dog's Life. It appears to only come on VHS , but it's worth the price and full of very useful information that will help get you inside your dog's head so you can be a better owner for your dog and give you both many years of happiness.

 

[Rain]

I'm a bit pressed for time right now, so I have not had time to read all the comments today. They are appreciated and, rest assured, will be read in their entirety in the next couple of days.

A few points in response to some of the issues raised:

- Red has been taken home on several occasions by one of the animal control officers at the shelter. He reports Red is much calmer in the home environment than he is in the kennels.

- Sally has no clout with the shelter whatsoever. However, she is trying to encourage friends of hers to nab Red before I can.

- I don't live in Vancouver, I live in North Vancouver. Pit bulls are NOT required to be muzzled here. Assuming I adopt Red, he would be muzzled (soft type) for the first little while, but once he's shown that his behaviour is safe, he would only have to wear it when absolutely necessary (ie. vet visits, etc.).

- I have no kids to worry about, nor am I likely to ever.

- Regarding the possible challenge for dominance: I can go along with all of the recommendations but one. If he is to live in my home, he will be welcome to sleep in my bed.

- I am pretty sure there are no renters or home insurance issues based on the type of dog you have (or even whether or not you have one at all) here, but I'll be sure to check it out.

- If I decide to adopt Red and the landlord isn't flexible, I'm moving. That's that.

- If I decide to adopt Red, I'm gonna fight for him with everything at my disposal (my manager, who has been in the pet food industry for 14 years has already agreed to write me a letter of support) and I can assure you he will be extremely well cared for.

 

[Rain]

Well it appears as though this thread has run its course. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Today I learned that Sally has already deployed a friend to the shelter who has walked Red a couple of times. On the plus side, I also heard that he is likely not going to try to adopt him as he plans to do some extensive traveling. Considering Sally's credibility and the fact that I heard this third-hand, all, some or none of it may be true.

Anyway, I'll keep you all posted on what happens in case you are interested.

 

[Lance Nichols]

Rain, Major has NO problems sleeping in the bed with my wife and I on occasion (usually a Friday or Saturay night). Fact is, he likes sleeping in his den. It's cute. If he thinks we have been downstairs for to long, he heads up to the bedroom and goes into his den.

Oh, and we are keeping out fingers crossed foryou and Red!