Interesting UFO discussion (1 Viewer)

[Edwin-S]

I'm really tired of this excuse to explain away the government's ability to successfully execute a conspiracy. Governments successfully execute conspiracies all of the time. Just ask Chileans or Iranians if they think the US government was too incompetent to successfully pull off a conspiracy.

I cannot say whether the government has succeeded in pulling off a successful conspiracy in regards to UFOs, but they have succeeded in other venues, including their involvement in the Vietnam War. The movie THE QUIET AMERICAN adequately demonstrates the ability of arms of the U.S government to engage in conspiracies.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Need I remind everyone that this guy graduated from the same program that produced a person who drove 1000 miles in a diaper in order to pepper spray a romantic rival; prior to what could have been murder via mallet and BB gun?

 

[Bryan X]

^ Good stuff, Jeff.

I have no doubt the out government can pull off cover-ups and conspiracies. But I don't beleive they can on the scale that alien visits, faking moon landings, etc would require. Those are just too large scale and would have had to have been kept secret by too many people for far too long.

It's like the crazy "fake moon landing" nuts. Not only would the U.S. government have to be involved, but foreign governments too-- the Soviets. They were closely monitoring our space activity. If they thought for a moment we were faking it, they would have blown the whistle.

I think covering up alien visits would be just as difficult. As far as I know, not a single nation on Earth has officially claimed it was visited by aliens. And I don't think we're so vain to think that we in the U.S. are the only people they visit. That would be one massive world-wide cover-up. I just don't buy it.

 

[Lew Crippen]

None of these are very good examples, as they are things that are public.

I think that the government is very good at hatching plots and very bad at keeping them secret.

 

[Radioman970]

I laughed.

 

[RobertR]

Exactly. The very fact that we DO know about them makes it self evident that the government CAN'T keep "big secrets".

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Well, the conspiracies we DON'T know about make it self-evident that government CAN keep secrets. Hmmmmm?


Now where's my giant space dragon? I gotta get him in my Hydrogen powered perpetual motion machine and drive to the teleportation depot; that damn dragon needs to visit the vet and the closest specialist is on Regulus IX.

 

[RobertR]

LOL "I know because I don't know, and I'll ignore what I do know".

 

[Edwin-S]

Whatever. You guys have entirely missed the point. Whether we know about them now is not the point. The fact is when these capers were pulled off nobody but the perpetrators were aware of them. All of them were successful and lead to the deaths of millions of foreign nationals and thousands of Americans. They were the classic definition of conspiracy and all were successful which belies the point that governments are too stupid or incompetent to pull them off.

My original point was that "incompetence" is a tiresome, overused and inaccurate excuse for minimizing the criminality practiced by governments. It is obvious that governments can and do execute successful conspiracies. Whether they are revealed 20 years down the road is immaterial. By that time the damage is done and the perpetrators have gotten away with their crimes.

Right now, the government is engaging in black ops both domestically and internationally. By definition, a black op is a conspiracy, so at the present time there are plenty of conspiracies being perpetrated the government and no one, except the perpetrators, knows anything about them.

But I guess if we learn about them twenty years from now that will somehow make them less of a conspiracy.

 

[Bryan X]

We're WAY past 20 years on this one. The alien conspiracy we're talking about would have to be atleast 61 years old (and more than likely involve more than one government). I don't think anyone is saying that the government can't pull off secret-ops in the short term, but hiding something like the existence of aliens for over 60 years is a whole different story.

 

[Will_B]

Hiding something that is difficult to find is probably easier than hiding something that is in the open.

 

[RobertR]

Hiding it is one thing. Keeping it a secret that it's hidden is another. Government is no good at that.

 

[Scott Strang]

Let's assume for a minute this is true. How could one even remotely expect the military, or any of other branch of our government, to admit that any kind of presumeably non-human entity could interfere with our means of defense?

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Yeah!! I can think of no reason why, especially in an election year, that the ACLU, the press, or a party of government would reveal Top Secret programs which uncover weaknesses in or jeopardize the security of our military or clandestine services. That would never, ever, ever happen (*cough* Pentagon Papers *cough* Iran Contra *cough* Bay of Pigs *cough* secret submarine technology *cough* ability to track terrorist cell phones *cough* Existence of the NSA *cough* tapping phone calls from incoming terrorsts *cough* CIA planes transporting terrorists to other countries *cough* Cia interrogation techniques *cough* *cough* *cough**cough* *cough*- My Lord, I think I've caught a cold ).

 

[Scott Strang]

I agree;
"ChristopherDAC" is code Alien's Destruction Activation Center. It's an organization that used for the destruction of various civilizations. He was giving us a fair warning.

I think he is to be admired for that.

 

[Buzz Foster]

I'll tweak my original statement by acknowledging that in the relative press vacuum in remote "third-world-ish" places with a huge advantage of money and technology, the government has been able to do some secret nasty things for a while.

HOWEVER:

The alleged UFO "conspiracy" has been examined intensely by members of the press and by a number of people of quite high intellegence. So far, no physical evidence has been produced to support any of the wild claims of MUFON, or anyone else.

As far as I know, Richard Hoagland has not been so much as hassled by the IRS, let alone spirited away by the men in black. Of course, if the men in black DON'T spirit Hoagland away in the middle of the night, then it is a government conspiracy to ignore him so that he looks discredited. Damn, we government agents are sneaky!

In 1997, the official files were released on the "Roswell Incident". The secrets were all out. For years, UF-Ologists were saying that if the government's version of events was true, then release the files so we can see. So there they were. All the files. Released for all to see. It was high altitude listening for Soviet nuclear tests. But you would be hard-pressed to find one UFO enthusiast who did not think it was a cover-up, despite the fact that there was no evidence of tampering with the documents.

One would think that in 1998, the whole "Cydonia Face on Mars" BS would have finally come to an end. No face, just a hill. Not so, according to Mike Bara who puts several points on one of his web pages:

"1) The manner and timing of the acquisition of this data is in stark contrast to the claims by Malin Space Science Systems and NASA that obtaining the pictures would be difficult, if not impossible. I will show that this image was acquired with an exquisite degree of precision, that the timing and placement of the spacecraft was premeditated, and that it was done for two reasons: to rephotograph the "Face" under lighting conditions least conducive to bringing out fine detailed structures, and to do so in accordance with a ritualistic practice in place at NASA since the dawn of the space program.

2) The image is only marginally better than the previous Viking data, and in some cases not as good. I will also show that this was part of a carefully considered political campaign designed to minimize the widespread dissemination of data favorable to the Artificiality Hypothesis.

3) There is reason to suspect alteration of the provided image, though as yet no proof.

4) Regardless of these considerations, this new image strongly reinforces, rather than discredits, the claims of artificiality.

5) That representatives of NASA and Malin Space Science Systems continue to distort data in order to promote the "Funny Looking Hill" argument."

I mean, really. The suggestion is that NASA sent a probe to Mars to image the surface of the planet for the purpose of making Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara look stupid? The big question in my mind would be if Hoagland could fly in his own spacecraft to Mars and check it out for himself, would he still conclude that Cydonia is just a hill, and not an alien temple? He lives not too far from me in Placitas. Nice place, if you can afford it. I can't. And I'm guessing he'd have trouble paying the mortgage if he just said, "Well, sorry folks. I was wrong. Just a rock, not a temple.".

This isn't something the government could keep secret. There's just no way.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

So that's NASA's fault?

Did you know that is the same organization that sent men to the moon and back?

Should we start going through the records of prestigious universities to see what a few of their former students have done? Was there a serial killer who went to Harvard?

 

[Chris Lockwood]

So because some things are known to the public, that means nothing is secret? I don't follow that "logic".

 

[RobertR]

I'm saying they haven't kept such secrets. Please, don't start demanding that I prove a negative, such as "yeah, so those secrets were revealed, but prove they AREN'T keeping other deep dark secrets indefinitely".

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Gee, I would think the big huge yellow smiley/winkey face would keep you from being offended by a tongue in cheek remark made WAY BACK IN JULY!! :rolleyes