I'm so disappointed in DVD quality ... (1 Viewer)

[Nils Luehrmann]

Todd McF wrote: While it is certainly true that some artificial artifacts are much harder to spot than others, and that it takes quite a bit of knowledge and experience to distinguish between film, telecine, mastering, and compression artifacts. Pixilation is with out a doubt the easiest artifacts to spot and significantly more obvious than EE.

I attempted to offer an objective insight into why some might be having a problem with this disc, obviously it has fallen on deaf ears. I'll try and mind my own business next time.

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

Todd McF wrote: While it is certainly true that some artificial artifacts are much harder to spot than others, and that it takes quite a bit of knowledge and experience to distinguish between film, telecine, mastering, and compression artifacts. Pixilation is with out a doubt the easiest artifacts to spot and significantly more obvious than EE.

I attempted to offer an objective insight into why some might be having a problem with this disc, obviously it has fallen on deaf ears. I'll try and mind my own business next time.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Nils,

thanks for helping clear up the issue about 100" being a "small" screen

Your comments about the real issue being viewing-angle is accurate.

Regarding folks with less accurate vision...

I'm not saying that the following applies to what's going on with everyone in this thread regarding the visibility of pixel noise...but my story is as follows:

After a buddy of mine had set up his new home theater with Sharp 9000 DLP and 100" firehawk screen, a bunch of us stopped by to ooohhh and aahhhh and spin some titles. One title we threw up for some demoing were scenes from the Phantom Menace. WOW. The EE was plain as day...looked like someone had traced all the hard edges and contours with a crayon. Rediculous.

I said to the two other guys who were in the room (one of which owned the HT system), "Wow! So *that's* the EE that everyone's been talking about on this title!". They both said to me "What are you talking about? What's EE". I pointed it out to them. They said "I can't see what you're talking about. What is it again?". I was astonished. We were sitting at exactly the same viewing distance and technically *I* should wear glasses but wasn't wearing any...and these fellows both had excellent vision. Yet they just didn't "see" the ringing from EE. It wasn't a matter of their vision, so much as a matter of their perception.

However, having said all that I agree that pixelization in general is much more obvious an artifact. Clearly there is much interplay between software and playback hardware, and video DSP that can affect the final image, and couple that with subjective perception, it's no wonder we've got the diversity of impression that we're reading about in this thread!

-dave

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Nils,

thanks for helping clear up the issue about 100" being a "small" screen

Your comments about the real issue being viewing-angle is accurate.

Regarding folks with less accurate vision...

I'm not saying that the following applies to what's going on with everyone in this thread regarding the visibility of pixel noise...but my story is as follows:

After a buddy of mine had set up his new home theater with Sharp 9000 DLP and 100" firehawk screen, a bunch of us stopped by to ooohhh and aahhhh and spin some titles. One title we threw up for some demoing were scenes from the Phantom Menace. WOW. The EE was plain as day...looked like someone had traced all the hard edges and contours with a crayon. Rediculous.

I said to the two other guys who were in the room (one of which owned the HT system), "Wow! So *that's* the EE that everyone's been talking about on this title!". They both said to me "What are you talking about? What's EE". I pointed it out to them. They said "I can't see what you're talking about. What is it again?". I was astonished. We were sitting at exactly the same viewing distance and technically *I* should wear glasses but wasn't wearing any...and these fellows both had excellent vision. Yet they just didn't "see" the ringing from EE. It wasn't a matter of their vision, so much as a matter of their perception.

However, having said all that I agree that pixelization in general is much more obvious an artifact. Clearly there is much interplay between software and playback hardware, and video DSP that can affect the final image, and couple that with subjective perception, it's no wonder we've got the diversity of impression that we're reading about in this thread!

-dave

 

[Todd McF]

My Brother has the same projector and a FireHawk at 100". It is "significantly smaller" given our viewing ratios being around under 1.5 (THX?). He is doing it to avoid screen door effect. I like the larger screen but accept occasional screen door and DVD mastering artifacts. That is what I mean by "significantly smaller" - meaning to avoid noticing artifacts.

Anyway, now that David has chimed in....

Hello David!

Please pop in M&C and look for artifacts since you've got the same projector!

This ISF guy is all over me!

- Todd

 

[Todd McF]

My Brother has the same projector and a FireHawk at 100". It is "significantly smaller" given our viewing ratios being around under 1.5 (THX?). He is doing it to avoid screen door effect. I like the larger screen but accept occasional screen door and DVD mastering artifacts. That is what I mean by "significantly smaller" - meaning to avoid noticing artifacts.

Anyway, now that David has chimed in....

Hello David!

Please pop in M&C and look for artifacts since you've got the same projector!

This ISF guy is all over me!

- Todd

 

[Todd McF]

I think David also has the same DVD player (Momitsu V880 via DVI)...

 

[Todd McF]

I think David also has the same DVD player (Momitsu V880 via DVI)...

 

[Scott Kimball]

BRAVO!

We're all wired differently. We all perceive the world around us differently. There is more to the appreciation of moving images than simple visual acquity.

I have a distaste for edge enhancement, pixelation (when I see it) and the color orange.

Some are fooled by the trick that edge enhancement plays on us - that's why sharpening exists. It is very effective for the majority of people.

People sense motion differently. Some will be able to pick up on pixelation - some won't. It doesn't mean they have poor eyesight. Remember, most of our vision is in the brain - and some of that is a learned process.

I still don't like orange. But you are free to like it if you want to.

-Scott

 

[Scott Kimball]

BRAVO!

We're all wired differently. We all perceive the world around us differently. There is more to the appreciation of moving images than simple visual acquity.

I have a distaste for edge enhancement, pixelation (when I see it) and the color orange.

Some are fooled by the trick that edge enhancement plays on us - that's why sharpening exists. It is very effective for the majority of people.

People sense motion differently. Some will be able to pick up on pixelation - some won't. It doesn't mean they have poor eyesight. Remember, most of our vision is in the brain - and some of that is a learned process.

I still don't like orange. But you are free to like it if you want to.

-Scott

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I've got the DVD and did look at it the other day but I'll try it again and test these scenes for this artifact.

Yes, I'm running DVI from my momitsu v880 scaling to 1280 x 720. Curiously, MPEG artifacts like color banding and compression noise in the blacks have been MUCH more obvious running DVI from the momitsu vs using 480P from my Panny RP91. In fact, MPEG noise in the blacks was so distracting I had to go into the service menu of the projector and adjust things to push those black-levels down a gradient or two so they didn't stand out (then recalibrated with AVIA). Of course, the other PQ gains going scaled-DVI were more than worth the recalibration troubles. Now most DVD discs look watchable, though I can still see the MPEG noise on poorly compressed software if I look for it.

I'll give this title close scrutiny when I get the chance...

-dave

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I've got the DVD and did look at it the other day but I'll try it again and test these scenes for this artifact.

Yes, I'm running DVI from my momitsu v880 scaling to 1280 x 720. Curiously, MPEG artifacts like color banding and compression noise in the blacks have been MUCH more obvious running DVI from the momitsu vs using 480P from my Panny RP91. In fact, MPEG noise in the blacks was so distracting I had to go into the service menu of the projector and adjust things to push those black-levels down a gradient or two so they didn't stand out (then recalibrated with AVIA). Of course, the other PQ gains going scaled-DVI were more than worth the recalibration troubles. Now most DVD discs look watchable, though I can still see the MPEG noise on poorly compressed software if I look for it.

I'll give this title close scrutiny when I get the chance...

-dave

 

[Sean Patrick]

regarding the previous post - i have only had my projector set up for a few days and i'm using a Panasonic RP91 on a 106" screen with an infocus7200 projector. i think it looks great, now i'm hoping the upscaling dvd player and dvi cable i have coming in the mail were worth the upgrade!?!?!

 

[Sean Patrick]

regarding the previous post - i have only had my projector set up for a few days and i'm using a Panasonic RP91 on a 106" screen with an infocus7200 projector. i think it looks great, now i'm hoping the upscaling dvd player and dvi cable i have coming in the mail were worth the upgrade!?!?!

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Sean,

If you see a similar improvement going from the Panny rp91 (a GREAT DVD player) to the momitsu on your system that I see on mine...it's worth it. Scaling is much smoother on the momitsu...and fine object detail seems clearer. Well mastered DVDs look near hi-def now. Poorly mastered DVDs...well...look like poorly mastered DVDs :frowning: Of course, those DVDs didn't exactly shine with the panny rp91 either

Just keep in mind that just like with any change in input...the new dvi connection deserves a custom calibration and don't "judge" the image too harshly until you've had a chance to make sure the dvi input is tweaked in.

Let me know what you see. I'm curious how the same change in DVD players affects your image on the IF 7200.

Ok, thread hi-jack over! Back on topic...

dave

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Sean,

If you see a similar improvement going from the Panny rp91 (a GREAT DVD player) to the momitsu on your system that I see on mine...it's worth it. Scaling is much smoother on the momitsu...and fine object detail seems clearer. Well mastered DVDs look near hi-def now. Poorly mastered DVDs...well...look like poorly mastered DVDs :frowning: Of course, those DVDs didn't exactly shine with the panny rp91 either

Just keep in mind that just like with any change in input...the new dvi connection deserves a custom calibration and don't "judge" the image too harshly until you've had a chance to make sure the dvi input is tweaked in.

Let me know what you see. I'm curious how the same change in DVD players affects your image on the IF 7200.

Ok, thread hi-jack over! Back on topic...

dave

 

[Cees Alons]

Well, I have now watched the first 53 minutes of the R1 M&C on my DVD ROM drive frame by frame, and I'm 100% certain that there is no pixelization visible on that part of the disc. Not even in the "fog" scenes. (Oh, and I know what I'm talking about, I can certainly recognize pixelization.)

So, I'm beginning to wonder what other people (especially Colton, who is now even officially "so disappointed in DVD quality" in general as a result of this) have been seeing. Or was it at a further moment in the film? Can anyone please provide us with exact spots now?

BTW, I noticed that some of the fog scenes are shown as if through a looking-glass and on some of those images, the rain on the looking glass forms blobs (raindrops on the glass) that could possibly be taken for a pixelization effect. But of course, those are normal image elements.


Cees

 

[Cees Alons]

Well, I have now watched the first 53 minutes of the R1 M&C on my DVD ROM drive frame by frame, and I'm 100% certain that there is no pixelization visible on that part of the disc. Not even in the "fog" scenes. (Oh, and I know what I'm talking about, I can certainly recognize pixelization.)

So, I'm beginning to wonder what other people (especially Colton, who is now even officially "so disappointed in DVD quality" in general as a result of this) have been seeing. Or was it at a further moment in the film? Can anyone please provide us with exact spots now?

BTW, I noticed that some of the fog scenes are shown as if through a looking-glass and on some of those images, the rain on the looking glass forms blobs (raindrops on the glass) that could possibly be taken for a pixelization effect. But of course, those are normal image elements.


Cees

 

[mark alan]

Now if we can just get a few more people to watch 53 minutes of the movie frame by frame, we can end this big debate.

Are you sure that you didn't blink during any of the frames?

 

[mark alan]

Now if we can just get a few more people to watch 53 minutes of the movie frame by frame, we can end this big debate.

Are you sure that you didn't blink during any of the frames?