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I'm a believer! Lp's really do sound better! (1 Viewer)

Robert P. Jones

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 18, 1999
Messages
289
A Nitty Gritty is not absolutely necessary.

As media specialist for the University of Oregon in Eugene many years ago, one of my projects was to clean a collection of oversized 33 1/3 rpm non-LP records that had gathered tons of dust in an attic. My job was to transfer them to cassette.

They were about half again the size of regular LPs, and were recorded strictly for radio play. They were inspirational stories in nature, with lots of that good old organ music.

I scratched my head as to how to handle all that dust.

A friend had clued me in on the answer already, tho, and I knew he was right. They had to be washed.

I took them all to the bathroom and created some warm, very diluted soapy water to use. Very thin in its soapiness, but soapy nonetheless.

First I washed my hands with soap, of any finger grease, and rinsed thoroughly.

I then ran lukewarm water over the records first, both sides. Then I poured the diluted water over the surface and gently rubbed it around in circles on the grooves, rinsing as I went, so nothing would have a chance to dry out. I was very meticulous to hit every part of the record thoroughly, with this wash/rinse protocol.

Then I rinsed that side off and turned the record over and did the other side.

Then while it was still very wet, I spun the record, to get the excess water off. Tossed it in the air a few times, spinning like it was in an Aldspin - a high-speed wringer that some of the Eugene laundromats had, that would spin your clothes so hard you needed very little drying of them in their dryers.

When I was satisfied that I had gotton all the water possible off that way, I then took a terrycloth towel and dried the rest of the water off, eventually buffing it.

When I played the records on the oversized turntable at the U of O Media Center, it was radio play quality again. The tapes came out fantastic. I never found out what happened to the originals I had cleaned.

I had a chance to calibrate a 34" Sony HDready DV for Bill Joy, co-founder of Sun Microsystems, several years ago. The call came in from Red Rose Music, whose gents were installing a system for him, upstairs in his SF place, one of many he evidently has around the country.

I had never heard of Red Rose Music.

But halfway thru the job I heard a live band 2 flights up, playing Girl From Ipanema. At least it sounded live from 2 flights down.

But as I climbed the stairs, it became even more live sounding.

I hit the top of the stairs and was brought back to the reality that this was the sound system in action. I couldn't believe it because I was distinctly hearing both halves of the tophat cymbal, separately and independently of each other.

It was vinyl.

I came to find out that Red Rose Music was Mark Levinson equipment. I got to meet Mr. Levinson 2 days later, in person. There was some noise coming thru with the RPTV I was working on coupled to the sound system in that room, and that was the first time I saw the triple grounding selectivity of his equipment. It was a rush, being asked to listen to something that was confounding Mark Levinson!

My Radford equipment was purchased before CDs came to being, and the reason was that I had heard you could hear the various violins in the string system separately, distinctly and individually, even when tons of them were playing at the same time. They were right.

But the level of my equipment never attained what I heard that day, nor the other times I have had a chance to listen to Mark Levinson equipment.

The phono preamp is the key, tho. I listened to the Radford's phono preamp from my high-output moving coil cartridge - meaning no pre-preamp was necessary on that one - stomp all over a Marantz phono preamp of the same era, neither one a separate unit from the rest of the amp, but part of it. I hear the Thompson was a very good one of its time, as far as the preamp separates went.

Haven't done a lot of a/b testing, but I know the sound of a Mark Levinson reproduction is that of feeling as if the instruments are floating in front of you, in mid-air, in 3D. Completely transparent. No amps, no turntables, no speakers. Just the instruments and their musical operators, floating in midair, fingers often zithering along the strings on their way to where their fingers will lie for that particluar note...

Invisible, yet transparent.

Is that even possible?

Mr Bob
 

Wes T

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Apr 11, 2000
Messages
55
It is funny this thread has come up. I have been throwing together some vintage stuff for a relative and just last weekend hooked up an old "silver Pioneer" receiver to my old turntable. I couldn't help but notice just how smooth and warm those old LPs sounded. I especially noticed the richness of the high end. To me those old records sounded better than anything I have heard in a while. I listened to records all day on that old stereo. It was the most fun I have had in a long time. The pops and scratches never bothered me at all either. I grew up with them and they are still in all the same spots that I remember them. I am throwing an old vintage two channel system together just to listen to my old records on. I like my CDs too. But it is the sound of the old LPs that will always be near and dear to my heart. -Wes
 

Robert P. Jones

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 18, 1999
Messages
289
It occurs to me that in some ways I am using the same considerations around plastics today in cleaning optics on RPTVs and FPTVs that I used back then on those old, dusty records. Some lenses are glass, but most are plastic. The same considerations apply in both cases, of course.

Namely, that of being sure to suspend gritty particulates in liquid before moving them. Or removing them, as the case may be.

True for both regular optics cleaning and the deeper optics cleaning that involved removing the lenses to get to the CRT coolant covers. Both of which are absolutely essential, at times, to keep the light path as clear as glass, which as a calibrator is one of my numero uno priorities.

Mr Bob

PS - One reason for the phono preamp is the RIAA curve instilled to have the ability of bass waves to take up the same space on a record as regular freq's do. If left to their own devices, no LPs would have ever been recordable, since there would not have been enough room on the record, with the bass waves taking up tons more space than the regluar freq's.

So the RIAA curve very carefully diminished the bass that would be recorded. The phono preamp was to recapture that diminished bass, and restore it to its former glory.

Ceramic cartridges had such a high output that they were very near the OP of other forms of input, like tape level, tuner level and later, CD level, which is the general AUX level of 1 volt, peak to peak. But they didn't restore the lost bass in the RIAA equalization curve.

Magnetic cartridges were incredibly lower in gain than ceramic carts, but could be designed much more linearly. Magnetic phono preamps involved not just equalization, but gain also. Moving coil carts, rather than the typical moving magnet cart, usually required even more gain than normal magnetic carts. Mine was an exception, being an Adcom high gain moving coil version.

The phono preamp had to accomplish both of these tasks superlatively, all the while preserving the breathiness we all refer to as "air". Very few inexpensive ones did.
 

Bob~M

Auditioning
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Messages
10
Interesting discussion!

I don't buy into a lot of the traditional arguments for vinyl being superior to CDs. Digital is a pretty good technology, and the output of a digital system is a continuous analog waveform with remarkable fidelity to the original source (not a bunch of 1s and 0s).

However, I do agree that many vinyl records sound *much* better that the CD of the same title. I believe it mostly comes down to how the recording was mixed and mastered.

The state of CD mastering is pretty sorry these days. Signals are processed, compressed, and bandwidth limited to death. When you get your hands on an LP (preferably pressed when the recording came out), you're likely getting a mastering job that hasn't been hacked to death by these dubious methods.

So is vinyl inherently superior to CD or SACD or DVD-A? I wouldn't say that. But, any given vintage vinyl pressing is very likely to sound better than what you can pick up at the CD store today.

Need proof? Listen to the LP and CD versions of Bonnie Raitt's "Give It Up" and get back to me.

Vinyl - part of a balanced musical diet!
 

matt-f

Second Unit
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
267
Intresting thou. I heard that it's true the some classical musical musicians refuse to have their music released on CDs because it's not their true sound. They will only release on analog media.
 

Brad_Harper

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 5, 2001
Messages
132
For me vinyl just doesn't make a lot of sense to invest in these days. I can't justify to myself spending thousands of dollars for equipment to play a dying format. I also have to agree with the argument that mastering of a recording has a lot more to do with the way vinyl sounds better then some CDs then the actual formats themselves. I have heard some terrible sounding LPs as well as terrible sounding CDs. The care taken in the mastering process makes all the difference.
Vinyl is just to much damn work. It is definitely a format for tweakers; and there isn't a lack of those here. :)
 

Mattias_ka

Supporting Actor
Joined
May 21, 2001
Messages
567
For me vinyl just doesn't make a lot of sense to invest in these days. I can't justify to myself spending thousands of dollars for equipment to play a dying format.
Well, it does not make a sense NOT to invest in vinyl.

Why?

1. You will have A LOT music to buy for VERY cheap prices.

2. No copy protection

3. Many vinyl WILL sound better than the CD version because better mastering. Let's leave what format that are the best (some say vinyl like me, some CD. But both can sound bad and good).

4. That vinyl is a dying format cannot be more wrong. The last 5-6 years vinyl have increase MUCH! The numbers that have been showed here are not even the right nr because many vinyl will not get into the statistics.
 

Bob~M

Auditioning
Joined
Aug 22, 2003
Messages
10
I can't justify to myself spending thousands of dollars for equipment to play a dying format.
For me personally, having a record player is more a matter of having access to 70-plus years of recorded music, much of which will *never* be available in digital format. I went through a phase of buying vinyl of new releases, but it just made me too darn nervous about scratches to $40 records, etc. Also, I find less difference between vinyl and CD versions of contemporary releases (it all tends to sound like CD).

So the question of the future viability of LP is less an issue to me than the ability to enjoy a world of music at very little cost. As long as I have my 3500 LPs, and the local thrift shops, vinyl will never die for me.
 

Iver

Second Unit
Joined
Sep 23, 2002
Messages
324
Rachael:

Iver, do you think those turntable sales partly reflect some people rebelling against the price of new music?
I'm not sure how much the resurgence of vinyl is related to price.

There are bargains as you mention, and for quite a while turntables have been popular with smart, value-conscious music collectors. But the current popularity of LP's seems to be less a search for value than an outgrowth of a number of trends, mostly not price-related, which have been building for some time.

Records have bubbled along pretty steadily, even though they disappeared from the chain stores with the transition to CD in the 1980's. Music on vinyl has been important to hip-hop (not sure if the DJ's accounted for a ton of sales, but it's enough to keep a few specialty stores in business). Indy rock bands have often released recordings as LP's (though you might have had to mail order it from an ad in the back of a fanzine). The audiophiles never really gave up on their turntables.

Somehow, this below-the-radar level of activity has turned into big time sales figures. Crutchfield even has a turntable section on their Web site. Nothing says mass market like a section on the Crutchfield Web site.

If you look at the new releases on allmusic, you'll see that a surprising number of them are available as LP's.
 

Rachael B

Senior HTF Member
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Jun 5, 2000
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4,740
Location
Knocksville, TN
Real Name
Rachael Bellomy
Brad, it doesn't cost thousands to get good sound off LP's!!!! I got my present turntable, a Denon DP-L30 II circa 1983, for $35 at a flea market. My technican charged me $30 to give it a new belt, a cleaning, and mounted the Shure V-15 type 3 cartridge from my old turntable. If you're patient and look you could proably find a decent used TT and then you could spend 2-$400 for a really good cartridge and zowie you're set. Sure, the Music Hall spinners are better but it's subtle, and having a real good cartridge is ultimately more important IMO, anyway.

Like a previous poster, I will always have a turntable to have access to OOP stuff from the Flower-a-zoic Age and even older. The TT connects me with The Marketts, The T-Bones, Marc Benno, Richie Havens, Frigid Pink, Automatic Man, Fabulous Poodles, Johnny Almond Music Machine, The Nice, Phil Manzanera & 801, Area Code 615, and shelves full of others! Most of my favourite albums are OOP....
 

Thomas Newton

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
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2,303
Real Name
Thomas Newton
You may as well ask why DD on LD seems to sound better than DD on DVD.

Doesn't Dolby Digital on LaserDisc use a higher bitrate (a.k.a. less compression) than Dolby Digital on DVD? If so, that might have something to do with it.
 

Robert P. Jones

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 18, 1999
Messages
289
I think DD means direct to disc. I think they just barely had AC-3 in the time of the LD, and neither Dolby Digital nor DTS existed yet. I think with LDs, Dolby Prologic was as good as it got.

I have a customer where some really expensive high end Meridian equipment was installed around then, along with his Ampro projector. He now faces having to replace that very expensive and elaborate preamp because it only had AC-3, which is hopelessly outdated today.

I have a Dual TT in excellent condition available - a 3 speed changer on lockable springs in its original dedicated wood base. Its motor is heavy duty and its platter is one of the old heavy ones, which stabilizes the wow and flutter to being a nonissue, and nullifies any resonances. It is available for a serious offerer because I also have a direct drive Technics upon which I put an 18 pound weight made for clamping records to the platter, which also nullifies resonances and smooths out any wow and flutter, with that nice Adcom moving coil cart. I don't need both TTs.

I would be willing to sell the Dual for a good price. Contact me directly. It was built to last indefinitely, as they all were back then, and as I said, is in primo condition. It has all the anti-skate, speed variability, fluid damping and counterweight niceties of its vintage.

The only thing that ever went out on those old Duals was the idler wheel and the lubrication, which would eventually dry up and need to be redone. I would see that it had a thorough overhaul before selling it.

Mr Bob

Owner, Image Perfection and Stereo Wizards
 

Philip Hamm

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 23, 1999
Messages
6,874
I can't justify to myself spending thousands of dollars for equipment to play a dying format.
Hey everyone else is quoting this line so I will, too!

IMO it's not especially worth it to get into vinyl from scratch unless you've got a line on a large amount of used vinyl for really cheap. Personally, I'm at an age that I had a sizable collection of vinyl before CD came out and I'm simply not rebuying those titles whether or not the CD sound better. The records sound fine to me for the most part. Often they sound better due to poor CD mastering, and often the CD sounds better, but all in all it's a wash.
 

Brad_Harper

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 5, 2001
Messages
132
I completely understand that the club scene has never really let vinyl go. Vinyl is a great tactile format that allows DJ's to perform. But unless you want the latest dance or hip hop song there just isn't a lot of music being released on vinyl these days compared to CD's. The music that is released requires you to do a lot of searching around to even find it. Plus "new" vinyl isn't any cheaper then a CD. In the case of the newest hip hop song the single is often only available on vinyl; you still have to buy the CD if you want the whole album.

I can see the point of investing in the format if you are really into anything released before 1980. But for someone like me who really only buys very selected titles from that era it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Chances are that if the lastest and greatest album from an artist was mastered poorly for the CD release then the vinyl mastering probably didn't get any better treatment.

Don't get me wrong about any of this. I like vinyl. It is a fun format; but it is a huge pain in the ass keeping it in good shape.
 

Lewis Besze

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 28, 1999
Messages
3,134
Doesn't Dolby Digital on LaserDisc use a higher bitrate (a.k.a. less compression) than Dolby Digital on DVD? If so, that might have something to do with it.
LD DD 384kbps

DVD DD 384-448kbps,[448 is more typical today]so DVD has less compression,or higher bitrate.
 

Frank_S

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 28, 1999
Messages
565
Don't get me wrong about any of this. I like vinyl. It is a fun format; but it is a huge pain in the ass keeping it in good shape.
It really is not a P.I.T.A.. What's so hard about putting an LP on the TT, removing it after play, and putting it back into its inner sleeve?
If I buy used records at the local thrift shop I simply give it a thorough cleaning one time, put it in a new inner sleeve, and store it in the LP jacket. Thereafter, I may or may not dust it prior to playing it. I see people complaining about LP care all the time but I just don't get it. :confused:
 

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