I Loathe Ticket Brokers - They Are The Scum Of The Earth (1 Viewer)

[Lew Crippen]

But if Supply and Demand is ok even though it is mostly illegal, then continue to argue, I don't see how I can keep arguing against scalpers anymore when I have a law that states it's wrong and I still get people arguing against me.

Not to argue against you at all, but the solution is fairly simple—don’t pay the scalpers price.

The issues which have been raised in this thread as to price goughing during times of crises and the price of collectibles are mostly beside the point, as no law exists against making profits by selling and reselling items in the second case, and you can usually find a fair number of people and business who do not price gouge in the first (and in any case this always is a very short-term issue and is not predictable, as is ticket scalping).

If you think that anyone has a right to a reasonable seat at an event with a high demand and limited seating they are fooling themselves. Even if no one resold their tickets at a profit, a venue that has 5,000 seats and 500 prime seats has only that many and no more. Those 500 seats are going instantly no matter how they are distributed. And in truth most of them are pre-sold or reserved for promotional purposes (such as radio station giveaways), including corporate sponsors or other high rollers, so those without connections have very little chance on landing prime seats.

I am not arguing that one should pay higher prices than the ticket price—just don’t go.

 

[Marc_Sulinski]

Just for the curious...

There's mountains of stuff on Google about gouging that occured during the NYC blackout.

Here's just one report that has the following:

1. A local pizzeria charging $48 dollars for two cheese pizzas.

2. $10 dollars a gallon for gas at a Sunoco station in Orange County, NY

3. $35 dollars for a bag of ice at a Long Island deli

4. $20 dollars for a six pack of beer at Manhattan store.

http://cbsnewyork.com/shamestories/..._233113718.html

Plenty more of this kind of thing to be found if one wishes to find it.

Got greed?

I think that there are some points that you are missing here. First of all, how do these businesses produce the products that they are selling? Chances are, electricity is required. This means that for the pizza place or the deli, they probably have a generator, for which they need gas, currently selling at $10 a gallon. Even though their costs have gone up considerably, do you think that they should still sell these products at the same prices they have always charged?

As for the gas prices going up, do you not think that it is possible that the gas station will have a much harder time getting a gas tanker into the city, given all of the traffic problems?

Essentially, the supply of goods is now limited. If the merchants did not raise prices, then the demand would far outpace the supply, causing a shortage. In that case you may not be able to buy pizza or gas at any price.

 

[RobertR]

If I agree to pay a man to steal me a TV, does this make it moral?

I'm amazed that you would equate buying a concert ticket with THEFT. Whose property is "stolen"?? What fraud is committed?

 

[Patrick Sun]

Perhaps the crux of the issue is the sense of entitlement that people feel like it's a right to be able to always purchase tickets to events at the face value, without factoring in free market conditions that affect their ability to acquire the tickets due to the value of their time/convenience.

The event handlers just wants to sell out the place, sell all the tickets at face value and be done with it. But not everyone has to resources to be at the right place at the right time to purchase the tickets, so a secondary market driven by convenience and demand for tickets is created by the "johnny-come-lately's", and the choice in that market is to either buy at the prevailing asking price (or negotiated price), or just not buy the ticket.

And scalping has its risk as well. The scalpers may have bought low, and had to sell even lower due to the expirational quality of the tickets. Either way, micro-economics and market forces are creating the new prices for the tickets for either scenario.

 

[MarkHastings]

Perhaps the crux of the issue is the sense of entitlement that people feel like it's a right to be able to always purchase tickets to events at the face value, without factoring in free market conditions that affect their ability to acquire the tickets due to the value of their time/convenience.

Then why is it illegal (at least in CT) to sell them for over $3 face value? The law makers see things the same way I do.

 

[RobertR]

in the case of ticket scalpers, they are breaking the law for no other reason than to line their pockets with cash.

In other words, your objection to scalpers is a MORAL objection to them "lining their pockets with cash" (even though they've committed NO theft and NO fraud), NOT a legal one.

 

[MikeDeVincenzo]

Marc

I truly and really hope you don't find yourself dealing with someone who reasons along those lines if you should find yourself in an emergency situation and desperate.

And by the way, its illegal. Yes, illegal. That trumps all the rationalizations you offered for price gouging, unless you also support breaking the social contract in order to maintain a pure system of supply and demand.

Its also immoral, in my opinion.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

> I guess I just don't understand how you can conciously break the law and still be considered 'moraly correct' in this case.

Because illegal and immoral are not the same thing. Is it immoral to drive 1 mph over the speed limit?


> Chris, I assume you are not including items that are considered absolutely essential, like water, right?

No, if anything, it's even more important to have the market set the prices for essential items. The higher the price, the more incentive there is to bring in needed items.


>Anti-gouging laws can serve a positive purpose though...to keep inflation from skyrocketing.

No, inflation is caused by the government printing too much money. Private sellers adjusting prices have nothing to do with inflation, but price increases in normal conditions are often a result of inflation.


I wonder why none of you accuse the concert promoters of price gouging, when ticket prices have gone up by a factor of 10 or more in the past 20 years. I have stubs from the 1980s where I paid $9-12 to see major concerts at arenas, the same type of shows that now run $50-150. You don't seem to mind that, but if some guy camps out all night at the box office & makes $20 profit on one of those $100 tickets, suddenly he's immoral. (BTW, if he ends up having to dump that $100 ticket for $50, do you feel sorry for him?)

 

[Lew Crippen]

Something that no one so far has mentioned is that scalping is not illegal everywhere, nor is it illegal to the same degree everywhere.

Scalping laws are (for the most part), local and locally enforced. So it is going to be pretty hard to generalize about what is legal and what is illegal. Such as earlier statements as to ‘illegal to resell for more than $3 over the face value of the ticket’.

That is hardly universal.

However morality might be universal (or at least it has more of a chance).

Which means that efforts to connect morality and legality are doomed.

 

[Lew Crippen]

I wonder why none of you accuse the concert promoters of price gouging, when ticket prices have gone up by a factor of 10 or more in the past 20 years. I have stubs from the 1980s where I paid $9-12 to see major concerts at arenas, the same type of shows that now run $50-150. You don't seem to mind that, but if some guy camps out all night at the box office & makes $20 profit on one of those $100 tickets, suddenly he's immoral. (BTW, if he ends up having to dump that $100 ticket for $50, do you feel sorry for him

If I were a concert promoter and saw those $10 seats being resold at $50–$150, I’d figure that the true market value was in that range and adjust my prices accordingly.

As has been asked in this thread before, why should the scalpers (or other middlemen) get the profit? By raising the tickets to more closely approximate the market value, the additional money is at least going to the artists and concert promoters—that is people who are not middlemen.

That plus, I’m just kind of guessing that the artists are getting a bit more today than they were in the 80s. At least the ones that sell out—who are the ones being discussed.

 

[MarkHastings]

(BTW, if he ends up having to dump that $100 ticket for $50, do you feel sorry for him?)

It's not the scalpers job to sell the tickets.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

> As has been asked in this thread before, why should the scalpers (or other middlemen) get the profit?

Um, because anyone who sells something for more than they paid gets the profit. That's the definition of profit. Why would anyone buy tickets to resell them for the same price?


> It's not the scalpers job to sell the tickets.

What is their job then? Making donuts?

 

[MarkHastings]

What is their job then? Making donuts?

Are we talking about the same thing? I don't think we are.

 

[Patrick Sun]

By rough definition, a scalper procures desirable items (like tickets for events) and hopes to sell them at a mark-up/profit.

 

[Marc_Sulinski]

State law prohibits "unconscionably excessive" prices for consumer goods and services that are vital and necessary for the health, safety and welfare of consumers during an abnormal disruption of the market resulting in a state of emergency.

this law applies only to those items that are considered essential. It also uses the phrase "unconscionably excessive." This would seem to indicate that raising prices is not illegal, but raising them too high is. And simply because something is a law does not mean that it is a good idea.

So do you think that the pizza place and the deli raised prices above an "unconscionably excessive" level? I really cannot say either way. I do not know how much more money it cost each of these businesses to provide the same goods in those circumstances. Does $20 seem to high for a six-pack? It depends upon how much the store has to pay to keep the refrigerators going. I suspect that the store owner may be able to justify his increased costs.

It seems that some people forget that a business owner must also incurr additional costs in times of emergency.

If the business is not able to make a resonable profit on the products that it sells, then it may as well close its doors until the emergency is over. In that case, nobody will be able to get these goods, no matter how much they are willing to pay.

 

[MikeDeVincenzo]

Marc

I suspect the REFIGERATORS WEREN'T RUNNING AT ALL! What the hell, do you think every tiny hole in the wall deil in NYC has a generator gassed and ready to go at all times?!!

Please explain to me how charging $10 dollars a gallon for gas is covering ADDITIONAL EXPESNES or in line with making A 'REASONABLE PROFIT'! Did the owner have to go to Saudi Arabia and carry the oil on his back and then refine it himself?!


Its greed, my friend. Pure and simple. Greedy people exploiting an emergency. Human nature and all of that, you know? This is why we have things called laws to control the excesses of human behavior. You know, the raping, the killing, the greed, etc., etc.

 

[Chris Lockwood]

> Greedy people exploiting an emergency.

Who is forcing people to buy anything? If I had been in NYC during the blackout my priority would have been getting home safely, not buying pizza or a six-pack.

 

[MikeDeVincenzo]

Chris

Many, many people were stranded on Manhattan for the whole night. Without electricity, the commuter trains and subways could not run.

Do you remember the pictures of hundreds of people sleeping in the streets because they had nowhere to go?

 

[Chris Lockwood]

What about the buses and taxis? I was not aware those were electric.

 

[Max Leung]

However morality might be universal (or at least it has more of a chance).

Many people on both sides of the spectrum won't believe me, but scientists have some evidence that this is true. Neuroscientists and behavioral biologists are experimenting on this as we speak.

*cue dramatic music* The Truth Is Out There