I have two words for you...Bass Management UPDATED! (1 Viewer)

[Cees Alons]

I think Obi's "news" is very comforting for all DTS owners.
I cannot agree with those who say that the mix must be thus that a deficient system (i.e. a system that has front and centre speakers defined as "large" while in fact they cannot produce proper bass) will sound right.
On this point I fully agree with what Vince Maskeeper (and, directly after his post, Kieran Coghlan) has said about the LFE channel in particular and bass production in general.
And, BTW, measuring bass is fine, and can tell you a lot about your setup. But measuring output from a specific filmtrack is a bit tricky - more is not automatically equivalent to better as Obi pointed out. To know which system is more accurate, one has to measure the original sound track as well (and a lot more, like sound pressures in a typical movie theatre, etc.).
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[Oswald Pascual]

Obi
I also have to tell you that for Bass Management you need one thing... BASS! I am sorry to disagree with you on this, becuase I really trust in all of your reviews. This DTS DVD is lacking in the bass tremendously. Bass management is extremly easy with my Lexicon DC-2, and I have triple checked everything. When I tell you that the DTS DVD I have has no bass I mean it literally has no bass. The subs are barely trying to even move an ounce of air. I got tons of bass from "The Haunting" and from "Saving Private Ryan" but when playing "Jurassic Park" sounds like somebody got the big bass knob in the sky and turned it down waaay down.
Ozzie

 

[David_ Alexander]

"BTW, measuring bass is fine, and can tell you a lot about your setup. But measuring output from a specific filmtrack is a bit tricky - more is not automatically equivalent to better as Obi pointed out. To know which system is more accurate, one has to measure the original sound track as well (and a lot more, like sound pressures in a typical movie theatre, etc.)."
Isn't measuring and comparing those discs speak for themselves and reveal the level encoded and not the "set upt" output capacities ??? If Terry was measuring his set up, he would have used an SPL meter at least and it would have not AT ALL be fair by any standard. IMHO.
Regards
David

 

[Dan Brecher]

Have you considered the possiblility that the DVD is the accurate version, compared to the original master, and the LD is not? Just because you like the sound of the LD more does not mean it is the version that more closely matches the original. Ask yourself why Universal would intentionally screwup a marquee title like this.

Indeed I have, Obi. I like how the DVD sounds to be honest, hence my stating I am actually all too happy to spin the DTS DVD as my version of choice in future... Besides, I never actually stated I deemed one correct over the other now, did I?

Regardless my curiousity remains in these reports that DTS are not happy with the disc, and again these ones that state there is NO bass, something I very much dissagree on.
After playing yet more of JP I'm drawing myself to the same feelings that I have with Lost World. While yes I feel the bass is not as strong as the LD release, I actualy feel there to be a lot more of a flow to the bass on the DVDs, more so with TLW then JP, but still, some additional tests this afternoon really had the DTS DVD pleasing me in numerous areas.
It's just like you said when you reviewed the DD DVD in comparison with the DD LD. I've quoted this in another thread, but you basically said that while yes, they sound different, they both sound great and I am drawn to that conclusion here with the DTS DVDs.
Dan (UK)

 

[Robert George]

The graphs are worth a lot of posts.

With all due respect to the guy going to the trouble to chart these graphs, the only useful measurement in the context of this discussion is a graphical comparison between the original uncompressed 6-track master and the subsequent DVDs. These graphs have no proper baseline reference.
Just saying "Jurassic Park has less bass than The Haunting" doesn't really mean much. I could tell you that without a graph. Even saying the JP DVD has less bass than the LD does not add anything meaningful to the discusssion because you don't have the original master for comparison to determine which is more accurate.
Robert

 

[David_ Alexander]

This is the very reason we asked him to do more measures and compare the two dvds and the laserdiscs also, if he has them. One interesting point would be to see how the DPL and the DD laserdiscs of JP compare to the current dvds, since there seems to be a lot of issues on the DD/DTS I just read in this forum.
As far as we know, JP laserdiscs were considered among the mothers of violent bass, no matter what sound types were used (DD/DTS/DPL). It would be strange to believe all three versions were "boosted". Considering the current dvds of JP, one would rather believe it has lost its crown vs Haunting (an example) stealing it...
As for the DTS in theaters, isn't it a 800 (+/-) kbps ?
Regards
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[RobertR]

Just saying "Jurassic Park has less bass than The Haunting" doesn't really mean much. I could tell you that without a graph. Even saying the JP DVD has less bass than the LD does not add anything meaningful to the discusssion because you don't have the original master for comparison to determine which is more accurate.

Very well stated, Robert. BTW, all this hand wringing over the JP DTS track really brings home the point that it's the mix, not the codec, doesn't it?
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[Carlo_M]

Damn I knew it! I brought up the bass mgmt issue in the other thread and went home (my HTF-Free Zone so I can devote my time to, what else, movies!) and now I'm back and this thread has sprouted up!
While I don't have the largest mains, I do have Energy C6 L/R and an AC300 center which are definitely not "satellite" speakers. One of the things I noticed on the T-Rex roar is that it really gives my AC300 a workout, more than most (or any that I can think of) title that I can remember.
If people complaining about bass just switch their speakers to small and redirect the bass intended for the mains to their sub, perhaps that will take care of the problem. I know that in my system, with the speakers set to large and fairly capable main speakers, I find nothing wrong with the dts track (other than the low dialogue as previously mentioned). Definitely no lack of bass.

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

Many of us enjoyed Jurassic Park on the other formats immensely...and if the DVD (DTS and DD) versions of JP have the best and most accurate soundtrack available today, then so be it...those previous versions must be the "wrong" versions, and now we're hearing how it is supposed to be.

Well, again: I don't think anyone in this thread has said that you're wrong if you don't hear bass. What has simply been said is that much of the bass response is in the main channels. If you set up your sysetm properly (as obi suggested you try)- then it SHOULD be fine. If it isn't fine, well then we have a new point to discuss.
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[EricK]

I have to disagree with the "bass management" idea here. Regardless of whether you set your speakers to small or large the soundtrack itself will still sound the same.
the only thing bass management does is this:
A) If you set your main speakers (L,C,R) to "small" then the processor *RE-DIRECTS* the frequencies below 100hz or whatever your setting may be (80hz in my case) to the subwoofer. Subwoofer reproduces bass from mains and LFE!
B) If you set your main speakers (L,C,R) to "large" the processor will allow all channels to operate at *FULL-RANGE*. The Subwoofer will now just reproduce the LFE only!
C) The LFE channel is designated as a "added" bass channel. Thus its designation as "LOW FREQUENCY EFFECTS." THE LFE is used (or supposed) to be used to add an extra "flavor" if you will, to the deep bass of the soundtrack. Jurassic Park being a prime example of this, with the dinosaur roars, etc.
Finally, changing the setting on "bass management" will not magically give you MORE or ADDED bass. You will only get more bass if it is part of the soundtrack. In addition with many recievers having "TONE CONTROLS" you can *artificially* increase or decrease the bass.
Now on my system, because it is THX, I can "defeat" the tone controls, which is something I have done for the past several years.
Now the Jurassic Park situation.
I have heard the JP DTS LaserDisc once. I was absolutely amazed by it. When the Raptor screamed at the worker at the beginning, I had chills because I felt the scream go through my body via the bass effects that went along with it.
I bought the Dolby Digital LaserDisc a few years ago when it came out *after* the DTS version was already out. Now keep in mind that at this point I had never heard the DTS LD. I played the DD LD many times and I am still impressed to this day with its sound. Of course having heard the DTS LD at a friends recently I was still even more impressed. I felt that the DTS LD offered a little more in terms of rock solid tight heart stopping bass and atmosphere.
When I came here last night and saw people posting about the bass-less or limited bass of the JP DTS DVD, I was quite worried. After all the disc was waiting for me to play it. And I was hoping it would *improve* on my JP Dolby Dig LD.
So I did play it, and I know that the bass on that DTS DVD is nowhere near what it should be...at least in comparison to BOTH the Dolby DIG LD and the DTS LD. Now if someone is telling me that BOTH LaserDiscs are innacurate, then there is something seriously wrong here. Something is not right with the way the LaserDiscs were made? Two different versions, made different years? With different coding schemes? I cannot concur with that finding. I also cannot agree that some one has set up their bass management wrong. Changing the simple fact of large or small speakers will not give one *more* bass, it will only direct or redirect the bass accordingly. The only conclusion I can come up with is that some, if not all the DTS DVD JP discs were produced defective.
Hopefully I made some sense out of all of this!
Eric.

 

[David_ Alexander]

Eric
While I agree with most of what you say, I must say that a good subwoofer is better at reproducing the deep bass (30hz and below) than large speakers.
Thus re-routing the bass from the mains to the sub should improve the bass "punch" but only in the low frequencies. And this is where the standard crossovers options on most hardware are limited and should allow, like on Lexicon, Theta and some Sony, more options, ie, 50 and 40hz for instance.
I myself do not believe the laserdiscs (all JP laserdiscs) were "altered" to such an extent.
Players (ld and dvd) are also to be looked at.
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[Oswald Pascual]

"If people complaining about bass just switch their speakers to small and redirect the bass intended for the mains to their sub, perhaps that will take care of the problem."
Carlo, I have done that as well as others that have posted here. In fact I always have my mains to small. All I really did is double checked the fact they they are set to small. The only reason I mentioned "The Haunting" is not to say that it has more bass than JP(Which it obviously does) it's simply to state that my system has no problems playing bass on my other DTS DVD's. However when playing JP it really sounds like getting the bass in your car stereo and bringing it all the way down. Thats what my DTS JP sounds like.
As far as the graphs go, I can't really answer that, all I can say is I do not need a graph to tell me how weak the bass is in JP. Without comparing to others just by listening to the actual DVD I can tell you there is something wrong.
Ozzie

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

Quote:

Sure it will give you "more bass" if the bass is on the Full Range main channels, and your Main channels can't reproduce it.
I will go out on a limb here and say that most HTF members have main speakers which cut off at around 50hz. If there is sub 50hz bass in the main channels, and their system is set to LARGE, then they are not hearing it.
If those same people change their speaker setting to SMALL, rerouting the bass to the subwoofer, all of a sudden the sub 50hz freq their main channels were ignoring is there, and thus, VIOLA, "more" bass- at least more in the sense of the perception.
-Vince
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[David_ Alexander]

But if most HTF members have their mains set to SMALL AND have quality sub(s), yet are still disappointed ? ...
Not mentionning the fact often you see set ups with the sub level set a + X dB too ....
Bass management issue is not the Nobel's idea: most know that and probably many in the hobby for a few years know how to set up their system to sound RIGHT.
Why did this problem occur all of a sudden with this title and not with many popular others, such as the Haunting, Blade and other Soldier discs ?
JMHO.
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[Robert George]

But if most HTF members have their mains set to SMALL AND have quality sub(s), yet are still disappointed ? ...

But that does not seem to be the case. What I am reading now indicates a relative handful of individuals whose expectations were not met so they are assuming a defective disc.

 

[Matt Wiltshire]

Please, please, please,
somebody tell me I'm right here.
The purpose of the .1 LFE track is purely and simply to provide a way of adding deep and powerful bass impact where required without adversely affecting the ability of the other 5 channels to carry it.
Each of the 5 channels has limited bandwidth - the .1 LFE channel is there to allow bass to be added over and above what would be possible on these 5 channels due to them being heavily loaded with other, higher frequency, information.
With that in mind, as others have stated 5.0 is a perfectly valid format providing that the 5.0 channels have sufficient bandwidth to render the whole soundtrack accurately.
All of this is separate to the issue of bass management which the decoder/receiver performs to route the bass appropriately according to your own particular setup.
Sorry to state all this again, but it seems like it is often forgotten.
Of course, if I'm wrong then please be advised that I prefer my flames in the form of certain Indian and Thai foods.
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veni, vidi, vici bibi

 

[Jerry Gracia]

I have zero complaints...the audio mix on both JP DVDs is simply jaw dropping!
...oh BTW, I have the Dolby Digital versions.
I have 5 satelite speakers set to "small" and the sub handles the LFE and "bass" like a dream.

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[Carlo_M]

Jerry, OUCH!
I should be getting my DD versions within the week so I too will be able to contrast and compare. As I've said I found nothing lacking in the dts version but perhaps after listening to the DD version something will become apparent? Never owned the dts LD...

 

[Rob L]

Regardless of whether you set your speakers to small or large the soundtrack itself will still sound the same.

As Vince has stated, that is WRONG.

 

[Jim A. Banville]

>>>Each of the 5 channels has limited bandwidth - the .1 LFE channel is there to allow bass to be added over and above what would be possible on these 5 channels due to them being heavily loaded with other, higher frequency, information. >I have zero complaints...the audio mix on both JP DVDs is simply jaw dropping!
...oh BTW, I have the Dolby Digital versions.