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I have two words for you...Bass Management UPDATED!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Robert George, Oct 10, 2000.

  1. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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    This is really a hardware issue, but it relates to a software subject so I will post here.
    Those that are claiming unusually weak LFE on the dts track of Jurassic Park should check their system configuration to make certain their bass management settings for DTS are most suited to the types of speakers in the system. If all channels are set to full range, you better be sure your main speakers can truly produce very low bass at loud levels. Here's a hint, not many can. That's why we use subwoofers.
    It has been suggested (but not confirmed) that the master Universal used for the JP/LW DVDs was mixed with some of the LFE mixed into the left/right main channels to improve the 2-channel downmix. This is not incorrect, per se. It does, however, make proper system configuration more critical. If you are relying on the LFE track to provide all the low bass in your system, a track mixed in this way will sound very weak. Unless you are using main speakers that really pump out the low bass, you should have your system crossover set to route all low frequencies to the subwoofer, as in a THX configuration.
    Robert
     
  2. WilliamC

    WilliamC Stunt Coordinator

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    Obi. My NHT 2.5i's are full reange and I have THX certified reciever (AVR-4800) and can honestly say that there is a problem on the LFE track. Maybe all copies aren't affected I don't know. What I do know is that I am having this problem.
     
  3. Steven Simon

    Steven Simon Producer

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  4. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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    Are you using the standard THX configuration? If not, set your speakers to "small", or whatever Denon calls it. If you are still experiencing what you consider incorrect LFE level, I would suggest investing in the Dolby Digital version and comparing the two. Maybe you are just expecting too much from this soundtrack.
    There is about zero likelyhood there is a "bad batch" of discs out there. Even if Universal used multiple manufacturers to press the discs, there is only one DLT master. They would simply make clones of the digital master to press the discs.
    Robert
     
  5. Ron Radojkovic

    Ron Radojkovic Auditioning

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    While I rarely respond to possible "hysteria" issues (IMHO), I nevertheless have been eagerly anticipating the JP and LW releases for quite a while. After reading numerous posts regarding the possible "DTS LFE" issue, and after reading Robert's possible rational explanation, I undertook to perform a quick test, using Robert's configuration theory.
    1 - I setup my receiver (Denon 5700) to channel the LFE to my main speakers (Pinnacle Classic Gold Aerogels - same for the surrounds). The result was that I had 'decent bass' but it wasn't earth shattering. I was quote 'disappointed'.
    2 - I reconfigured my setup (back to the way I listen to it) to channel the LFE to my sub (Paradigm PW-2200) and IMHO, the JP DTS DVD sounded great, with PLENTY of wall shattering and house-shaking LFE-directed bass (just ask my family who were trying to do homework).
    I compared the JP and LW DVD's (various selections) and apart from any artistic variations applied by the sound engineers, they both sounded equal in stature (I am by no means any sort of expert nor do I pretend to possess more knowledge than some of the more distinguished members of this forum) but from the results of my quick test, I cannot 'hear nor feel' any lack of LFE in the JP DVD IMHO.
    Maybe I got lucky with my copy...or maybe Robert is right...........
    My $0.02 worth (for what it's worth)
    Regards,
    Ron
     
  6. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    I got about a +2-4 dB difference in overall level for the DTS version. I didn't isolate the LFE, but there didn't seem to be anything lacking--quite the contrary.
    Yamaha 995
    Mains-- B&W 603 (set to small)
    Center--B&W CDMC SE (small)
    Rears-- B&W 602 (small)
    Crossover--90Hz
    Sub--DIY 12" Shiva (set to kickass)
    So I assume the internet rumor was due to a hardware issue rather than an encoding error--much ado about nothing.
    DJ
     
  7. Kevin Coleman

    Kevin Coleman Supporting Actor

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    Makes sense to me Obi. [​IMG]
    Kevin C.
     
  8. Bruce Abar

    Bruce Abar Stunt Coordinator

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  9. Rob L

    Rob L Extra

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    The THX "setup" is to set all speakers to small and have the bass sent to the sub.
     
  10. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Screenwriter

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    What I don't get is that they would use the "optimized for DD 2.0 downconversion" master on the DTS version. No DVD player that I know of can downconvert DTS anyway.
    If what was said on another thread was true, DTS must be upset that Universal compromised the mix in this fashion. I would be too, especially since this was the film that put DTS on the map.
    Dan
     
  11. Henry Gale

    Henry Gale Producer

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    My DTS JP DVD sounds fine, although the surrounds are a tad weak.

    Sub M&K MX-200

    Pre/Pro Proceed AVP

    DVD Player Pioneer DV-09


    I have no answers, just glad I dodged this particular bullet.
     
  12. Scott Lund

    Scott Lund Stunt Coordinator

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    I think Robert George you are 100% right. My system is Infinity RS5 front and surrounds, CC3 center and a sub. I have typically left the five speakers set to 'large' on my receiver.
    This DTS JP I tested tonight sounded good, but the DD version I tested had much more LFE. Then I tried what you said and turned the speaker settings all to 'small'. Voila the DTS JP came alive. Absolutely rocked the house. I think my chest is still vibrating from the T Rex. So I hope anyone else having trouble with the DTS version will try this before they start returning or selling their DTS copies of this film.
     
  13. EricK

    EricK Second Unit

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    The bass on JP DTS DVD is definitely misencoded or something like that! LOL. Its terrible compared to my JP Dolby Dig version.
    However the Lost World DTS DVD sounds perfect......seems something got messed up in the JP disc.
    Eric.
    Added: Using a Millenium 2.4.6. DTS processor. My LFE sounds incredible with just about any other dts or dd dvd I play. Lost World had some incredible bass. Sounded like I got a bad copy of JP. The bass sounds approx -10db what it should be.
     
  14. Scott Lund

    Scott Lund Stunt Coordinator

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    Heh have you tried what Robert says? It might be mastered in a strange fashion compared to other discs, but when I changed those settings it made a night and day difference on my system. I suppose it could depend on how your receiver or decoder splits the signal though....but for me where the LFE was close to nonexistant it now seems even deeper and richer than the DD version (sorry don't mean to start anything there but it does to my ears).
     
  15. Mark McLeod

    Mark McLeod Second Unit

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    I thought the LFE was a bit weak compared to what I was expecting, but still not as weak as some others. So I tried lowering the amount of bass to my main speakers and it did make a big difference. I then tried changing my speaker size to small and that made even more of a difference.
    So Obi is correct. There is no problem with the bass on the JP DTS DVD. It's fine, to acheive the best results, play around with your system.
    Mark
    Thanks Obi, You are one person I can count on for reliable information time and time again.
     
  16. Brian M Kuss

    Brian M Kuss Auditioning

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    "It has been suggested (but not confirmed) that the master Universal used for the JP/LW DVDs was mixed with some of the LFE mixed into the left/right main channels to improve the 2-channel downmix. This is not incorrect, per se. It does, however, make proper system configuration more critical. "
    "There is no problem with the bass on the JP DTS DVD. It's fine, to acheive the best results, play around with your system. "
    OK, I've got a theoretical question about these statements. If what OBI is saying is right then how can this mix NOT be considered incorrect? What I mean is, in the entire 3+ year history of DVD (over 7,000+ titles) this one disc is forcing people worldwide to change their HT settings (which have been working just fine with every other DVD out there).
    Why should people have to screw around with their settings? I've got 50+ dvds and every one I can pop in and play with no problem. I've never seen this much confusion regarding a disc before. If all these other discs can get it right, shouldn't I expect the same from JP? And besides, isn't the LFE channel there to produce LFE effects? Why 'borrow' some of that to stick in the front channels? If that's the case, why claim to have an LFE track at all? Just call JP a 5.0 mix then.
    It just seems to me that even if this is the explanation, it's still not 'correct' and it should be re-done.
    My 2 cents,
    Brian
     
  17. Mark McLeod

    Mark McLeod Second Unit

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    I agree Brian, I can usually pop in any disc and have it sound just fine, sure there are some differences and I sometimes need to bump up the center channel or the sub but yes for the most part we shouldn't have to change our settings. Atleast we can change our settings to make it sound better.
    I wish the LFE was all directed to the LFE channel, but atleast I can redirect some of the bass that was getting sent to the main channels back to the LFE.
    Argh, we should just all be happy that it's on DVD.
     
  18. Brian M Kuss

    Brian M Kuss Auditioning

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    "Argh, we should just all be happy that it's on DVD."
    Yeah, really [​IMG]
    I can just imagine the posts when Star Wars finally comes out on DVD . . .
    "Those lightsaber woooshes just aren't cracking my house foundation! This disc sucks!!!" [​IMG]
    Brian
     
  19. Max Leung

    Max Leung Producer

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    Yeah, I posted a little joke somewhere about how we're all gonna hate the Dolby Digital 5.1 version of the Star Wars Trilogy.
    "Where are the surrounds?"
    "Um...they didn't use surround sound technology when those movies were made."
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Mark Booth

    Mark Booth Premium
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    FWIW... My setup is such that my surrounds and center are set to SMALL and my mains (L&R) are set to LARGE. My mains are Paradigm Monitor 7s which, I am pleased to say, give some pretty decent bass output. My sub is a Velodyne 1012. With the speakers set as such, I get wonderful bass from the Dolby Digital version of Jurassic Park.
    Granted, I know the concern seems to be over the DTS version... I'm just saying that I see no problems with the DD version on my system. Again.. FWIW (which might not be much). [​IMG]
    Mark
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