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I don't see why anybody is suppourting Dual-y Disc! (1 Viewer)

gregD

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I refuse to be a beta tester for a gimmicky format that brings no added value to the listening experience... convenience and a few throwaway videos do not make for added value... 'extremely small handful' of incompatible players? -- inevitable that it will include mine... and I'll be damned if I'll risk my players to a thick disc.

DualDisc is nothing more than another useless shiny gadget dumped on unwary consumers by an industry increasingly driven by the computer business model -- sell it now, address problems later.
 

Rich Malloy

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Remember me? Mr. Hi-Res Optimist?

Hoo boy, it's been a tough year. No need to be too verbose about it: dual-disc seeems to be the final death-knell for any worthwhile hi-res media. By all accounts, DVD-A is being fazed out entirely to make way for this poor bastard of a format, and it would seem that SACD is fading away nearly as fast.

I hate to say it, but I see no silver lining here. The only question I have now is whether to buy up all those DVD-As and SACDs that I want but don't yet have, or sell off my hi-res collection for fear there won't be any hardware to support it a few years hence... aka the agonizing dilemma of the early adopter of a failed technology.
 

John McM

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out of curiousity, how did they handle the NIN "Downward Spiral" dualdisc? that's a 65 minute album. Did they cut out a track or do edits or what?
 

Danny Tse

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According to this article from Sterephile, there're more DualDisc planned.


According to sa-cd.net, 80 SACD titles were added to its database in January 2005, making this month one of the busier months in terms of SACD releases. While titles may not get released in the US, it seems SACD is doing OK in the rest of the world.
 

Craig F

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The reason I heard was, they tried a dual layer disc, but since DVD players weren't designed to handle a disc that had a CD and DVD layer on the same side, many players would get confused and the disc wouldn't play.
 

Will_B

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I supported the idea of Dual Disc (there's no "y" in Dual Disc, and I don't understand what reference you are trying to make by adding it -- are you Australian or something?) because SACD and DVDA are DOA.

DualDisc had the potential to get the labels interested in multichannel music again. But it hasn't. I particularly liked how DualDisc, at least in the test marketing, was focused on current artists.

So now we have nothing. No SACD to speak of, no DVDA to speak of, and no DualDisc to speak of.

The CD section of music stores gets smaller every day, and the labels aren't stepping in with anything to replace it. They're blowing it big time.
 

Will_B

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I just checked out that Stereophile article and am glad to see there's some current acts planned for DualDisc. I admit I will get whatever Avril Lavigne may be coming out with.

The article also went a long way to explaining (albeit indirectly) that the reason there is "hatred" of DualDisc is because some audiophiles don't like the way that the audio isn't always in high resolution.

Personally, multichannel matters more to me than advanced resolution. Hopefully they can weather the slings and arrows of the audiophiles.
 

Rachael B

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Will, Dual-y Disc is just the way I pronounce it. I'm not Australian but I'm willing to learn!;)

How many folks would buy a Dualdisc player if one was sold? Not me, not yet, I'm stille waiting for he last two formats to be suppourted in a meaningful way, emphasis on meaningful way.

The object of Dual Disc, sorry Will, Dual-y Disco is to raise the price considerably if there's any acceptance, I'm so sure, gag me with a spoon! It won't cost the same as a CD for long if it lives.

I choose the safety of real Redbook, SA-CD & DVD-A.... "...gimme the goods and half of the action...":)
 

Will_B

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Well Rachael you seem terribly misinformed. There's no such thing as a DualDisc player because you already own it.

As for speculation about whether the prices of DualDiscs will remain at CD level or would, if a success, be raised to SACD/DVDA prices, well who knows. I know I can't afford the Aimee Mann SACDs!

Consider that your faith in Redbook CDs depends on CDs still being made... and that is far from certain. Each time I go into my nearby CD store, they've removed another aisle of CDs and replaced them with action figures, games, DVDs and other products which they feel have a future.

If CD does not get replaced with something, we could be seeing the end of physical product distribution as we knew it.
 

Brian L

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Here is something I found over at the HTSpot that you may find either interesting or infuriating:

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsth.../page/0#693280

Short story: It claims that AIX is going to release a dual disc, but in an unusual way...there will be two discs in the box; a dual-disc and a two sided DVD-V.

No real details are given in the post, but based on AIX's past mega-support of DVD-A, I would expect that the DVD side of the DD is the real deal..Hi-Rez MC.

BGL
 

Phil A

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The audiophile objection goes well beyond the lesser sampling frequencies of most announced releases. It is more than just a problem of getting stuck. The extra thickness of a DualDisc may stretch the transport clamp mechanism over time beyond it's intended design parameters. depending on the design, this may cause long term damage by making the transport no longer optimal for normal thickness discs. Since they have not been tested long term in any players and since models generally change once a year anyway, I don't think its possible to do more than make educated guesses. It is something that might rear its ugly head via someone playing DualDiscs on a particular piece of equipment over time. Audiophiles generally buy more expensive equipment and don't want to be guinea pigs to see what the discs may do over time. They know the main objective of the people selling them is to sell software and not oversee lots of objective testing to see what real problems may occur. I personally don't care who buys DualDiscs, it is OK with me. I won't be. I always have a backlog of stuff to listen to and buy and I don't need to buy something that may cause equipment problems.
 

Kris Deering

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The CD layer doesn't really concern me personally. I am only going to buy them to listen to whatever MC tracks they have and in that case it is a standard DVD. I don't plan on playing the CD layer on my HT transport.
 

gregD

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On the nose-y!... this alone should be a screaming red alarm that precludes the sale of a single DualDisc... I can't imagine this isn't getting more attention, though the hardware manufacturers' public disclaimers should have been sufficient.

Potential player damage is not guaranteed, but why even take the slightest chance?... especially if that damage might occur subtly over time -- damage which could possibly extend to other discs... the mechanisms of digital playback have standards and parameters that are precisely devised -- why compromise proper playback to squeeze on not-so-special extras? (namely throwaway videos or a hi-res layer that isn't quite).

We should demand decent-quality software, while we can still get it... I also agree that downloading will be the future, at which point you can kiss sound quality good-bye forever... I can only vote with my wallet, and persuade others whenever possible, and otherwise hope I can latch onto well-produced music discs into old age (sounds like I'm there already, doesn't it)... and I'm sure I'll be outvoted by a majority who think that a tacked-on 'The Making Of' video is really cool ('look, it's all on one disc!').

So to anyone who'll listen, decline DualDisc... it's gimmicky, under-developed gadgetry... and there's an outside chance that it might damage your player.
 

Kevin C Brown

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John McM- Re NIN DD: I don't know. Maybe they adjusted the size of the pits to get 65 min on it? CDs do have a portion of the data area filled with error correction info. Maybe they made that part of the discs smaller? Also, for example, even though a 700 MB CD-R "officially" can only be burned to 80 min, you can "overburn" it by using more of the physical disc area. (I have burned up to 84 min, but one of my players would only play discs up to 82 min.) Maybe some trick like that? I think Kris has the NiN DD. Kris: CD side is still 65 min?

I remember some of the early CD players had a little indicator for when the error correction circuitry was working. I don't think any player has this now though.
 

Emil Stoica

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And here is my problem with Dual Disc. I would have bought the Avril Lavigne disc as well however there is NO multichannel on the release. Just slighty higher rated stereo (which will probably not be noticeable) and a few videos on the DVD side.

DVD-A and SA-CD have to find a way to survive. There are a few encouraging signs. I just received the Bryan Ferry Boys & Girls SACD and it is very nice. The Best of Seal DVD-A is on the way. The REM re-issues are on DVD-A. And it appears that the Moody Blues and Genesis SA-CDs will be released. I hope that the "Dual-y" :) goes the way of the dodo.
 

Rachael B

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People, I think Dual-y Disc is really an ethical low even for the big 4 and that's saying something.


...Will, there are no players for Dual-y Disc, nada, zilch. My two best or most favoured players cost me $800 and $2000 respectively, and no disc of questionable lineage will see their interiors, no way! This is an indisputable fact for now. Who knws about the future, there could be one next month...? I doubt it. The record-y kompanies want to pull a fast one here. Atleast 3 out of 4 anyway, since is all for show with (where's the) beef for Sony not even sincere. Do not let them, the big 3 + 1, even have a glint of hope. Just like in fishing, there are keepers and throw-backs.

Let's talk about Warners. Look at the pricing on the two-disc sets they have up for release. Unless the preorder I saw for them was wrong, $24.98....I think this was for R.E.M. I'm quite certain if Dual-y Disc did well, they'd very soon be $20. "They'd" say, well look, each disc comes with a toy suprise! ;) It has "added value". This is the industry's delusion, that they can make a $20 disc with something on it or about it that will cause a long line of eager, enthusiastic buyers to magically appear. Magic mirror on the wall knows better and so do I, I bloody believe.

Over on Steve Hoffman's magic mirror, ball...today I linked to a Philips press release for Scarlet-y Book SACD 2.0. It wasn't much but "furmat whar part-y deaux" can't be long to start, eh...? Ping pong, all day long....
 

Phil A

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I also understand the Doors will soon be out on DVD-A, initially in a box set and then individual albums, thank goodness. I also look forward to the Seal disc as well. I do think that SACD and DVD-A will be around as niche formats for at least a little bit. I'm still content to buy either hi-rez format. I personally don't care whether something has multi-channel (although I realize that most people would) as long as it is quality 2-channel better than CD as in the manner the Neil Young DVD-As or greatest hits was done on 24/96 DVD-V. I don't see the big attraction to buy CD-like quality audio on a software format that might actually cause damage over time to your hardware.
 

Rich Malloy

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I awoke this morning in a slightly more optimistic mood than when I posted yesterday...

Dual-disc seems almost certainly to be the end of DVD-A. That's a shame, but fortunately for me I never jumped head-first into this format, and still have under 20 titles. So, DVD-A seems now to be a dead format, and I suspect dual-disc won't be far behind. After all, it's the only hi-res format that the hardware manufacturers refuse to support under their warranties, hence all the legal releases... definitely a "use at your own risk" thing now. And it's the only hi-res format that the audiophile community has rejected out-of-hand, including some scathing editorials in Stereophile. Just read January's "As We See It" column, and then consider whether you want to risk damaging your equipment to play an inferior technology (even the CD layer is inferior to regular CDs). And, Will, CDs aren't going anywhere -- I also live in Boston/Cambridge, and I don't see any fewer CDs on the shelves anywhere.

Oh wait, didn't I say I was feeling slightly more optimistic? Well, only slightly. It seems that the DVD-Forum is hell-bent on ruining their supported format, be that DVD-A or dual-disc. As it seems that DVD-A is being entirely replaced by a format that even the hardcore DVD-A supporters have rejected, perhaps this bodes well for SACD. If we can get this down to a single hi-res format (and SACD has always been the preferred one), then maybe we can make a go of it. This latter point depends largely on Sony once again putting some heavy monetary support behind it, and that's hardly assured.

So, I'm still negative-Nancy, but perhaps slightly less so.
 

Rachael B

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Rich, I have a little different outlook on what should happen with the two formats. I'd like to see audio-only releases on SA-CD and releases with substanitive video extras put on DVD-A. It seems the purr-fect compromise. However, it's obvious that the music kompanies are stille butting horns and that the Dual-y Disc aggreement isn't worth it's weight in dung. Even if Dualy Disc was a good format, Sony and Philips' suppourt is just for show. They'll be back with SACD 2.0 soon, apparently, looking to get the whole pie, that might just be in the sky anyway.

The 4 majors have no hope of reversing their fortunes in a divided house and that persists...
 

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