Blu-ray Review HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: The Secret of NIMH (1 Viewer)

[Lord Dalek]

Yeah I obviously haven't seen the new blu-ray but I did see in 1080 on HDNet Movies and it looked pretty good for what it is, a lower budget animated film from the early 80s. That's not a flaw of the transfer, that's just the way the film looks.

 

[Tom M]

Comments from Gary Goldman on Don Bluth's site (I edited it to remove non essential content and to re-format it for easier reading):

I haven't seen the final NIMH, nor Anastasia's Blu-ray transfer on DVD. However, there is a digital master of Anastasia (it was shot digitally, in the computer and transferred to film for its release in 1997), and I'm sure they used the digital master and not a film element.


The inter-positive film print for The Secret of NIMH, or intermediate protective master (made from the original film negative) was physically cleaned before we started the transfer. However, every film has imbedded dirt and dust in the images of every frame, not just dust residing on the surface of the film. And, The Secret of NIMH was shot on 35MM film, way before digital filmmaking.


I personally supervised the initial color-correction transfer from film to the digital high definition Blu-ray format, but whatever debris was in the film image was transferred to the digital master. The next process was to digitally clean the new digital master of residual negative film dirt, dust and possible scratches, which I was unable to remain in LA to supervise, nor was I offered the opportunity.


What many people do not understand is that when you upgrade to a much higher resolution, the film dust, dirt and scratches become extraordinarily visible to the naked eye. I know that what Disney does for their classics is go back to the original negative and transfer it digitally at a full 4000 pixels (film resolution - FYI Television resolution is around 525 pixels about 25% of film resolution, so video and the older DVD imagery is very soft compared to HD or film imagery). This high res transfer allows the computer operator to easily find all of the flaws imbedded in each individual frame of the film. It's not just running the digital print thru some sort of electronic dust/dirt/scratch filter. Though, that is part of the process, but that process only removes the most prevalent and obvious specs. Someone has to remove the tiny, faint "dirt" specs from each and every frame.


When I asked about their process, they told me that the process would probably not be as extensive as I had asked for, that they would probably spend no more than three days to a week. I'm sure that when I get my Blu-ray copy of The Secret of NIMH, I will especially be looking at the digital cleaning job that they did. By the way, again we were hoping for the theatrical poster to be used for the packaging art. Instead the new Blu-ray still uses that same art as on the the past few releases - very discouraging.


Best, Gary

I personally am very happy with the NIMH transfer. It looks the best it ever has and it will be a very long time before it gets another new transfer, if ever.

 

[Carlo_M]

Pretty much what I would expect. Remember, we all have our favorite movies that we want "done right" but let's not forget Hollywood is a business, and is bottom-line driven. Putting my love for this film aside, this is what I would consider a reasonable effort for a studio to put forth for a title with the anticipated selling power that NIMH has. I'm actually surprised they even included Goldman on the first color-correction transfer, that's more than I thought they'd do.

 

[Carlo_M]

Not to belabor the PQ point, but I'm now watching w/ the commentary, and what's become obvious is how some of the perceived pic quality issues (haziness, focus, etc.) is actually a limitation based on "tricks" they did to achieve certain things which studios which had more money and time wouldn't have needed to do, and certainly don't need to be done with computer animation today.


So I'm revising (upwards) my opinion of the PQ, given how much of what we may see as a "poor quality" picture is actually the byproduct of the limitations they had given time, money, etc. at the making of the film.

 

[Radioman970]

^ the sad truth. Some graininess is like visible paint brush strokes. Just enjoy it as a labor of love by the artist.

 

[Tom M]

Also, the audio format is incorrect. It decodes as stereo when it should be matrixed surround which is the correct theatrical release format.

No, activating Pro-Logic does nothing. The audio is stereo unless you switch your BR player to PCM in which case you can use Pro-Logic to decode the audio as it was intended to be heard.

The DVD got it right. The audio decodes properly even without activating Pro-Logic. Not sure why they couldn't get it right for the DVD.


It's possible it's incorrectly flagged as my receiver shows: L/R/S which is correct but the display shows: STEREO instead of DTS-HD MASTER.


Clash Of The Titans (1981) and All Dogs Go To Heaven also suffer from this "stereo only" mentality. Very sad that no one cares.

 

[Carlo_M]

Many theaters around the time of NiMH still had stereo, so I'm hoping they used the original stereo soundtrack. And to be honest, I've never been the biggest fan of Pro Logic, so this doesn't bother me as much as if it were a discrete 5.1 soundtrack that was downmixed to 2.0. YMMV.

 

[Lord Dalek]

Fox made that same mistake when they did their SE of Red Dawn. I can't understand why they keep repeating it.

 

[Mark-P]

The fault is not with the disc but with your receiver. I've purchased several of the new Fox Blu-rays with DTS-MA 2.0 and my receiver automatically kicks into pro-logic. If you have an older receiver that doesn't do the high-resolution codecs (DTS-MA) then you are getting the core DTS sound and in the olden days, receiver manufacturers never considered the prospect of DTS 2.0 surround.

Originally Posted by Tom M

Also, the audio format is incorrect. It decodes as stereo when it should be matrixed surround which is the correct theatrical release format.

 

[Tom M]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlo Medina

Many theaters around the time of NiMH still had stereo, so I'm hoping they used the original stereo soundtrack. And to be honest, I've never been the biggest fan of Pro Logic, so this doesn't bother me as much as if it were a discrete 5.1 soundtrack that was downmixed to 2.0. YMMV.

Sounds like someone needs a history lesson:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Stereo


Also, Pro-Logic is just the home version of Dolby Stereo. Even if you have it off, most 2.0 DVDs will activate anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark-P


The fault is not with the disc but with your receiver. I've purchased several of the new Fox Blu-rays with DTS-MA 2.0 and my receiver automatically kicks into pro-logic. If you have an older receiver that doesn't do the high-resolution codecs (DTS-MA) then you are getting the core DTS sound and in the olden days, receiver manufacturers never considered the prospect of DTS 2.0 surround.

My receiver decodes all the new audio formats just fine. If I was just getting the core the display would read DTS not STEREO.


The disc may be decoding properly for you but does not mean it isn't improperly flagged. Some receivers can decode Die Hard 2 properly but most cannot.


Judging from what I've read online most are getting just stereo from NIMH not stereo surround.

 

[Mark-P]

Have you ever had a DTS 2.0 bitstream that decoded correctly on your receiver? (not Dolby Digital, but DTS) If so, then I'll concede that there may be a flagging issue, but the fact that these soundtracks decode correctly on lots of receivers makes me doubtful.

Originally Posted by Tom M


My receiver decodes all the new audio formats just fine. If I was just getting the core the display would read DTS not STEREO.


The disc may be decoding properly for you but does not mean it isn't improperly flagged. Some receivers can decode Die Hard 2 properly but most cannot.


Judging from what I've read online most are getting just stereo from NIMH not stereo surround.

 

[Jesse Skeen]

My 1998 Sony receiver (first affordable receiver available with DTS) wouldn't pro-logic a 2-channel DTS signal, but my new Pioneer ones does IF it's just regular DTS. DTS HD-Master Audio will only play in the format it's flagged for, so if it's 5.1 it won't go ahead and apply EX to the rears, and I just watched my first Blu-Ray with DTS HD-MA 2 channel (Gross Anatomy) and it wouldn't play that in Pro-Logic, just front left and right. If I set the player to PCM it will, but then I lose sound resolution.


I'm not too familiar with Blu-Ray authoring or the newer sound formats- can DTS be flagged for Pro-Logic, or will there ever be a firmware update for my receiver to play it in Pro-Logic mode if I tell it to? They should just use 2-channel PCM for 2-channel sound mixes. DTS is already a pain on my player since if I have it set to PCM, not only will it not decode the full resolution audio but it will not include any extra surround channels (6.1 or 7.1), but it will for the Dolby formats. I keep my player set to PCM since bitstreaming also loses any menu audio or picture-in-picture stuff, but if it's a DTS track I switch it to Bitstream. Don't know what I'm going to do if they keep issuing matrix-surround 2-channel tracks in DTS-HD.


(Never understood why most mono tracks are 2-channel Dolby Digital either- would make a lot more sense to just use 1-channel like Warner does.)

 

[Carlo_M]

Not sure what you're inferring with your comment. Just because Dolby stereo came about in the late seventies doesn't mean that most theaters had converted to it by 1982. According to your link: The original Dolby Stereo was first used on the 1975 Ken Russell film Lisztomania, in a 3-channel LCR configuration. The success of 1977's Star Wars, which used the four channel system to great effect, did much to encourage movie theaters to convert to the 4-channel LCRS speaker configuration. The 1979 re-release of 101 Dalmatians was the first Disney Classics film to use Dolby Stereo.


You think that within that seven year span that every theater in America had ditched traditional stereo for Pro Logic surround? I remember seeing many theaters, especially in smaller towns, that were still presenting in stereo well into the late 80s and even the early 90s.

Originally Posted by Tom M

 

[Tom M]

Originally Posted by Carlo Medina was the first Disney Classics film to use Dolby Stereo.[/i]


You think that within that seven year span that every theater in America had ditched traditional stereo for Pro Logic surround? I remember seeing many theaters, especially in smaller towns, that were still presenting in stereo well into the late 80s and even the early 90s.

You misunderstood me BIG time. I thought you didn't understand how Dolby Stereo worked. I mentioned NOTHING about theaters or how or when they upgraded. That wasn't even in my thinking.


I was seeing movies in MONO well into the 1990's. Hell, my second viewing of Phantom Menace was mono. My first stereo experience in a theater was Beverly Hills Cop 2 in 3 channel stereo (L/C/R). I also saw Revenge Of The Sith in 3 channel stereo. The theater I worked at untill last year still had good old Dolby Stereo 4 channel in most of the theaters, only 3 of the 10 theaters were digital.


BTW, NIMH's soundtrack hasn't been altered one bit. It's the original 1982 Dolby Stereo track.

 

[Tom M]

Originally Posted by Mark-P

My 1998 Sony receiver (first affordable receiver available with DTS) wouldn't pro-logic a 2-channel DTS signal, but my new Pioneer ones does IF it's just regular DTS. DTS HD-Master Audio will only play in the format it's flagged for, so if it's 5.1 it won't go ahead and apply EX to the rears, and I just watched my first Blu-Ray with DTS HD-MA 2 channel (Gross Anatomy) and it wouldn't play that in Pro-Logic, just front left and right. If I set the player to PCM it will, but then I lose sound resolution.


I'm not too familiar with Blu-Ray authoring or the newer sound formats- can DTS be flagged for Pro-Logic, or will there ever be a firmware update for my receiver to play it in Pro-Logic mode if I tell it to? They should just use 2-channel PCM for 2-channel sound mixes. DTS is already a pain on my player since if I have it set to PCM, not only will it not decode the full resolution audio but it will not include any extra surround channels (6.1 or 7.1), but it will for the Dolby formats. I keep my player set to PCM since bitstreaming also loses any menu audio or picture-in-picture stuff, but if it's a DTS track I switch it to Bitstream. Don't know what I'm going to do if they keep issuing matrix-surround 2-channel tracks in DTS-HD.


(Never understood why most mono tracks are 2-channel Dolby Digital either- would make a lot more sense to just use 1-channel like Warner does.)

Yep, Jesse that's exactly what's happening with my receiver which is also a Pioneer. Wonder if it's a Pioneer problem?

 

[Jesse Skeen]

You think that within that seven year span that every theater in America had ditched traditional stereo for Pro Logic surround? I remember seeing many theaters, especially in smaller towns, that were still presenting in stereo well into the late 80s and even the early 90s.

The standard configuration for stereo was left, center, right and surround- I've never heard of a theater having just left and right with no center. Theaters that didn't upgrade to stereo just used mono- before Dolby came out, the only way to do stereo was with magnetic soundtracks which only the big releases had.


Some of the less scrupulous theaters in the 90s installed "rip-off stereo" however, which was just one center channel behind the screen with surround speakers, then they cranked those up high to hide the fact that there were no front left or rights.

 

[Carlo_M]

@ Tom, it seems we're not on opposite sides. I understand Dolby Stereo (and the other formats) just fine. I can sympathize with the frustration of those whose receivers don't have DPL activated. My only point was that a pure stereo soundtrack from NIMH, as long as it's the original soundtrack, doesn't bother me as much because 1) it's true the original version, and 2) many of the country's theaters still showed it that way at the time of release.


It would bother me much more if a recent 5.1-recorded movie were brought to BD with only a stereo track.


@ Jesse: in small town theaters (I grew up in the central valley of California and went to many theaters in the various cities there) all movies were advertised as Stereo. Sure, they may have had L/C/R speakers (and some even had surround-positioned type speakers) but were presenting movies in stereo. I remember when they slowly started advertising their ability to present Dolby Surround late into the 80s and into the early 90s before I left for college. It was certainly a long transition, and I can tell you that by 1982 when NIMH came out, most theaters there were advertising their shows in stereo.

 

[Tom M]

Originally Posted by Jesse Skeen

@ Tom, it seems we're not on opposite sides. I understand Dolby Stereo (and the other formats) just fine. I can sympathize with the frustration of those whose receivers don't have DPL activated. My only point was that a pure stereo soundtrack from NIMH, as long as it's the original soundtrack, doesn't bother me as much because 1) it's true the original version, and 2) many of the country's theaters still showed it that way at the time of release.


It would bother me much more if a recent 5.1-recorded movie were brought to BD with only a stereo track.


@ Jesse: in small town theaters (I grew up in the central valley of California and went to many theaters in the various cities there) all movies were advertised as Stereo. Sure, they may have had L/C/R speakers (and some even had surround-positioned type speakers) but were presenting movies in stereo. I remember when they slowly started advertising their ability to present Dolby Surround late into the 80s and into the early 90s before I left for college. It was certainly a long transition, and I can tell you that by 1982 when NIMH came out, most theaters there were advertising their shows in stereo.

Carlo, we just had a misunderstanding. No big deal, it happens. As with anyone, I can only go by my personal experiences. If you heard movies in L/R stereo, I believe you. But here in New Jersey, I never heard a movie that way and I've seen movies pretty much all over this state!


Again, the soundtrack for NIMH is the original 1982 Dolby Stereo soundtrack. Having seen the movie dozens of times I would know if they changed it! It was one of the first digital soundtracks and still sounds fantastic today.