How much of a difference in sound quality is there amongt CD players? (1 Viewer)

[KeithH]

Doug, I find that the vast majority of SACDs I own sound noticeably better than the corresponding CDs, remastered or otherwise. Some SACDs such as Boston Boston and the Billy Joel discs are lackluster by SACD's standards in my opinion, and that could be a result of poor original masters or poor authoring for SACD. Still, the SACDs are better than the CDs.

I also find that most remastered CDs are much better than the original CDs. In many cases, my original CDs date back to the '80s, and many rock and pop CDs were mastered for CD very poorly in those days. Examples of remastered CDs that really impress me are Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers Damn the Torpedoes and The Doors remasters.

If you are able to get the 'C333ES at Tweeter, do post your thoughts.

 

[Doug_B]

OK, one more question, about SACD. If I go with the 333ES, which only plays 2 ch SACD and not multichannel, can I still listen to multichannel SACDs via some form of downconversion? I know that multichannel SACDs can have a 2 channel track on them as well (and from what I understand can also have a redbook track), but I'm not sure if this is always the case. Thus, if not the case, wondering if there is a downconversion capability in general and whether or not the Sony can do it.

Thanks.

Doug

 

[KeithH]

Doug, the SACD standard requires all multi-channel discs to have a discrete stereo SACD track, so the folding down of the multi-channel track to stereo is nothing to be concerned about. Some SACDs have CD layers, and such discs are referred to as hybrid discs. Note that Sony is not releasing hybrids.

 

[Doug_B]

Called a bunch of Tweeters in the NJ/Philly area earlier tonight before I had to go out. Only store demos of the 333ES are available.

What's the difference between the 333ES and the new 222ES? I think one of the Tweeter folks I talked to mentioned $800 as the list for the 222.

Maybe I'll just start out simple and go with one of the Marantz's; 3000 or 4000. Are these models good, both from a transport and D/A converter perspective? Or is it worth it to go with the Sony CA80ES?

Thanks.

Doug

 

[John Morris]

DougB: If you'd like, I can scour the countryside and find you a 333es from an authorized dealer for under $500. I also might be able to find you a dealer demo for under $375 or so if you are interested. I wouldn't pay $488+ for a dealer demo. LMK.

 

[TerryC]

IMHO once a subject becomes as debatable as this, one really has to question just how much of a difference there really is. Probably pretty small....

 

[Chip E]

"IMHO once a subject becomes as debatable as this, one really has to question just how much of a difference there really is. Probably pretty small...."
Terry, ya know, this the Home Theater Forum... These discussions are what it's all about my friend
BTW, depending on how good your equiptment is, there can be Night & Day differences in CD players. I think my gear is pretty good (Mid-Fi) which means it's transparent enough too make HUGE differences. I went from a junky $150.00 Technics CD player to a Sony CA80ES to a M-333ES 400 disc mega changer to presently, a SCD-C555ES .... SACDs & regular CD's on this player, on my system could bring tears to your eyes, no shit.

 

[KeithH]

Doug,

Sorry to hear that you couldn't track down a 'C333ES through Tweeter. Another member here picked up a new one at a Tweeter in PA within the last two weeks for $488, so I know that was not the price for a floor demo. Also, the $488 sign at the Tweeter in West Windsor did not say floor model or anything like that. Either the sign at this Tweeter stores was outdated or they sold out since I was there Thursday night, which is possible. Anyway, you might want to call J&R Music World.

The 'C222ES is a multi-channel SACD changer. Thus, it will play multi-channel SACDs in addition to CDs and stereo SACDs. It is a step-down model from the 'C555ES. The 'C222ES is well-constructed, but does not exhibit the level of build quality of the 'C333ES or 'C555ES. Interestingly, a person on Audio Asylum who owns the 'C222ES and 'C333ES says the 'C222ES sounds better in stereo mode. I haven't compared them, but that sounds suspect to me. The 'C222ES uses newer DACs, but I'm still skeptical. I have no doubts that the 'C222ES is a quality player, but I'm not sure it is better than the 'C333ES. All of Sony's ES SACD players have been excellent components in every way, so in the end, you can't go wrong with any of these players.

The retail price of the 'C222ES is $800, which is what you will for it at Tweeter or Crutchfield. However, Oade Bros. sells it for $600 delivered. They are an authorized dealer. J&R Music World and OneCall would probably match that price. However, if you were considering spending $600 for a changer, I would suggest that spend $200 more for the 'C555ES. Yes, it's a bit more expensive, but the 'C555ES is a steal for $800, just as the 'C333ES would be a steal for $500.

I really think that you should get a Sony ES SACD changer before buying a 'CA80ES. The 'CA80ES is a nice CD changer, but the 'C333ES and 'C555ES are definitely better as CD changers, plus you get SACD (and multi-channel SACD in the case of the 'C555ES). I haven't compared the 'CA80ES to the Marantz CD changers, but the 'C333ES and 'C555ES are really tough to beat.

 

[KeithH]

Terry said:

IMHO once a subject becomes as debatable as this, one really has to question just how much of a difference there really is. Probably pretty small....

Sorry, Terry, but that is a poor assumption. If were to compare a $200 player to a $1000 player in a revealing system, you would be amazed by how big a difference there really is. For example, in my system (Totem Arro floorstanders, NAD C 370 integrated amp), there is a night-and-day difference between the sound quality of my Denon DCM-370 CD changer and Sony SCD-C555ES SACD/CD changer playing CDs. Not even close. The Sony blows the Denon out of the water.

My feeling is that people who debate the difference in the sound quality between CD players haven't listened to the right players, haven't used good enough equipment (speakers, amp) to hear the differences, or cannot be objective to allow themselves to hear differences. The differences are there.

 

[Ricky T]

Terry,
I agree with your statement. But why bother These discussions will never ever end.....
Chip and Keith,
IMO if the differences between a $200 and $1000 CDP (or $800 diff) are described as night and day, then the diff between $200 and $1000 speakers (or $400 vs $1200, same $800 diff) are Earth vs Mars. $200 vs $1000 sub, Sun vs Moon.
SACD/DVD-audio aside, dacs in $1200+ prepros/receivers will make both the $200 and $1000 cd player, when used as transports, sound the same. So I don't think most people should worry about redbook dac performance as much as getting better speakers, sub, or receiver.
I own pretty revealing gear, as some of you may know, many different brands and models. My speakers are $4300 NHT 3.3 towers (TV read five 3.3 reviews I faxed him and said these put out at least as much bass as any def tech powered tower). Amps are citation 5.1/7.1s. I have owned the following at the same time: Citation 7.0 analog prepro ($4k retail, superb analog bypass), Sony c333es sacd, msb link dac, Onkyo 989 receiver, Elite cld97 LD. I can go on and on....... as my system has had dozens of variations/combinations and any blind testing I've done I used a radio shack meter to weed out gain/volume differences.......

 

[KeithH]

Ricky said:

Personally, IMO if there are night and day differences between a $200 and $1000 CDP (or $800 diff), then the diff between a $200 and $1000 speakers (or $400 vs $1200, same $800 diff) is Earth vs Mars. $200 vs $1000 sub, Sun vs Moon.

Yep, there is a big difference between $200 and $1000 speakers and $200 and $1000 subwoofers. I used the $200 and $1000 price points as examples. Actually, you don't even have to look at such disparate price points. I once owned a Sony CDP-CA80ES CD changer, which retailed for $500. It couldn't hold a candle to my $639 Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD player ($579 for the base player and $60 for Siemens 7308 tubes). Now, the Ah! is a tube player, but it still wasn't that much more expensive than the 'CA80ES. Likewise, the 'CA80ES couldn't hold a candle to the $800 'C555ES that replaced it. There is no question that I experienced a bigger boost in performance in replacing $250 Energy e:XL 16 speakers with $1100 Totem Arros, but the difference between CD players can be readily apparent. In fact, the Totem Arros, being very revealing speakers, made the differences much more readily apparent.
You don't even have to be an audiophile with a "golden ear" to appreciate the differences between CD players. A couple of months back, my girlfriend was over, and I had her listen to various components. Now, she plays her CDs through a boombox, so any of my hi-fi gear is impressive by comparison. Still, I played a couple CDs for her in a Sony CDP-CX333ES megachanger and the same CDs in a Sony SCD-777ES SACD player. Her jaw dropped when she heard the CDs through the '777ES. There is absolutely no comparison between the two units. The 'CX333ES on its own sounds very good, but when you play CDs in the '777ES, you realize how much you are missing when using the megachangers. Needless to say, my girlfriend gained a true appreciation for my pursuit of higher-end audio. Seeing as she and I have a real future together, I was glad (and smart ) to gain buy-in early.

 

[John Morris]

IMO if the differences between a $200 and $1000 CDP (or $800 diff) are described as night and day, then the diff between $200 and $1000 speakers (or $400 vs $1200, same $800 diff) are Earth vs Mars. $200 vs $1000 sub, Sun vs Moon.

Ricky: I can also attest that a Denon 370 CD player sounds much, much different than a Sony 555es SACD player. I guess the price differential is not quite as described above, more like $249 to $824. Still, the Denon sounds rolled off and less detailed than the Sony and IMO, that difference is easily heard even by JP6. Now when used as a transport, that is a different story, but in that instance what you hear most is the outboard DAC and not the CD transports themselves, IMO. However, I guess if someone can't hear the difference between those two CD players, then I guess they would never hear any differences between a Odyssey Stratos and a Marantz MA-700, or an SVS Ultra and a Sony WM20... NOT! In a way, that person would be very lucky as they could have a wonderful sounding system (to them), for a heck of a lot less scratch.

 

[KeithH]

John, yeah, this hobby would be much easier if we had no ears, huh? Hey, the smiley to the left of this sentence has no ears, and he looks happy.

 

[John Morris]

Hey, the smiley to the left of this sentence has no ears, and he looks happy.

Keith: AND, his eyes are closed too...

 

[KeithH]

Good point, John. Amazing how happy one can be when sound quality or the chroma bug is taken out of the equation.

 

[Norm Strong]

I've never come across a person that can tell the difference between an ordinary Technics $100 model and one of the much more expensive ones.

There's no shortage of people that CLAIM they can easily hear the difference, but I've never seen anyone demonstrate this ability.

 

[Howard_S]

I'm pretty sure that for people who listen all the time they will immediately notice the difference in sound quality. It would be quite easy to know whether it sounds better than their home or worse. You develop a critical ear as you become more experienced and learn more about how the music should sound like.
As for others like me. If you hook up two cd players with dramatic quality difference side by side and play one after another I'm pretty sure one can notice the difference. It can be that dramatic. Otherwise part of the enjoyment comes from knowing that you have a good system.

 

[KeithH]

Norm, I still contend that you and the people you referred to were not being objective, were not listening to players that were different in sound quality, or were not using good enough associated equipment to bring out the differences. Just last night, I listened to The Beatles "With a Little Help from My Friends" in a Sony CDP-CX333ES megachanger and Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 single-disc CD player (with Siemens 7308 tubes). The song sounded good on the megachanger, but the Ah! player brought the music to another level. There was much more air and depth to the vocals through the Ah!, as well as better soundstaging. Megachangers are not the best CD players by any means, but the Sony ES models are very good, and frankly, my amp and speakers (NAD C 370 and Totem Arros, respectively) are good too, so CDs played in the megachangers are quite pleasing to the ear. Still, a quality single-disc player like the Ah! or my SCD-777ES is noticeably better.

 

[Doug_B]

John,

Thanks for the offer to look into finding the 333ES for me. I am thinking that maybe I sould wait a bit before taking the plunge on a new CDP, and I'm on the fance about SACD, given the current scant number of titles in which I'm interested (although $500 for a good unit that also has SACD sounds very tempting).

I think I'll wait until the rest of my system is stable, as I just received new equipment and am currently evaluating speakers that I haven't previously heard (and have not broken in yet). My initial rush was to better evaluate them by making sure all my equipment was up to snuff, but I am assuming that such evaluation will be fine with new processor and amp and old Pioneer DVD player used as a transport. [BTW, I did end up getting the AVM 20 this weekend!]

Thanks again.

BTW, sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but I could not get to this forum via my home ISP all weekend; I'm on now from work.

Doug

 

[RicP]

I've never come across a person that can tell the difference between an ordinary Technics $100 model and one of the much more expensive ones.

Well, you have now.
Next time you're in this area, bring some cash and come on over. I will personally guarantee you that I can pick out with 100% accuracy a $100 CD player, and my Sony 333ES.
BTW Norm, weren't you the one not so long ago that was claiming that you couldn't tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 of the same track?
Anytime Norm...just bring the cash and come on over.
Keith:
Very interesting your opinion of the Ah! I found it to sound very distorted when I auditioned it. Not noise distortion but tube distortion, just pulled me out of the music. I found that my Sony 333ES sounded MUCH better than the Ah!
Didn't Stereophile place the Ah! in class D? Not exactly a glowing endorsement there.