Horn Loaded VS Everything Else (1 Viewer)

[Rob Rodier]

Tom, you make a interesting argument. I have been impressed with your knowledge on audio gear, especially "hornys" as you like to call them. From what I have read of your past posts, you are anything but a run-of-the-mill enthusiast, I respect that.

Putting a rig like this together will give much greater satisfaction than simply buying something, now you're involved as a doer and maker and not just a consumer; you're in the game and not just a spectator. Just like the old-time hi-fi guys.

I can see why this would appeal to many, but not me. The enjoyment that I derive out of this hobby is from being the end-user. It seems like a tremendous amount of research and knowledge is required to pull something like that off. You make it sound easy but... I could not even put together a model car, never mind build my own enclosures.

On the other hand, I am only 23. I might see myself getting into this kind of thing later in in life as a whole new hobby, but now I feel my money is better spent letting the pros handle it.

-rob

 

[Tom Brennan]

Rob---I understand. In your case if I was interested in a really good horn rig I'd go used ("vintage" as some say). I'd look for some nice old Altec Iconics, Model 19s, Model 17s, Valencias etc., Altec made many home horn models over the years. Or JBL L-200As or L-300s. And of course there are many used Klipschorns and Klipsch LaScalas and Cornwalls out there. Though Klipsch isn't my cup of tea many love them; I traded a pair of Cornwalls to my best friend for a pair of Altec 605s and we're both convinced we got the best of the deal.

 

[John Royster]

The main reason is not volume but accuracy

I sincerely beg to differ. The primary reason is volume, and it still sounds bad. How many performances have you attended where the amplified sound through horns was true? I'd put my ratio at about 1 in 20 for me.

Now take a performance where there are no amps, no horns. That's how planar speakers sound to me. I also usually hear such performances every weekend in small clubs where the room might not be friendly but the instruments sound real none the less.

IMHO, and I may be crossing the line..."lifting the veil" with horn speakers is because one has lost a fair amount of hearing.

 

[Jim_C]

>>I sincerely beg to differ. The primary reason is volume, and it still sounds bad. How many performances have you attended where the amplified sound through horns was true? I'd put my ratio at about 1 in 20 for me.>...and it still sounds bad

 

[Henry_W]

These opinion links are always fun to read. I have to agree with a couple of comments around horn bashing - I too am a horn fan - and I do not understand such 'I hate horns' and 'nasty sounding' comments. When folks of various loudspeaker religions visit and listen at my home I get no such comments (and as you all know, audio folks are not bashful in their comments about preferences). While I do not change the preferences of the older audience (and don't try to), I honestly do not have to supply kleenex for 'ear bleedings'.

All this is with what a bunch of horn fans call the 'not so great' Klipsch Heresy/Heresy II - a Klipsch heritage line speaker. The comments I get are 'clear', 'smooth' (how could that be?) and 'wow'. Granted, I have to fill the low end with good sub sounds to get my preferences correct.

Have I heard good cones that I would own (and have in the past) - you bet, but given the choice they would not be my primary speakers (and aren't). I have heard horns setup that sound harsh, but I have just as much ear experience with cones that sound 'muddy'.

As to stats or ribbons - they are a different beast that 'clearly' (pun intended) go a step farther than cones on reproducing mids and highs. I would rank them near to horns on my preference charts. If you are a cone fan - these should be near nirvana (or if you hate horns they are probably too bright for your taste). The only issue I found is that they are even more sensitive to equipment choices that horns.

 

[John Royster]

So why do horns bother me so much? Don't know. Personal preference, again. I also think that you can have a fabulous speaker no matter what the design, and we ALL hear/listen differently.

Maybe I just haven't listened to the right horns?

 

[John F. Palacio]

"People love to bash horn systems instead of accepting the fact that not everyone hears the same way."

OK Even though people hear differently we have to admit that two people with two totally different hearing curves can still identify the sound of, let's say, a "big band" type orchestra from even the best electronic reproduction system out there. The same goes with a live violin, piano, acoustic guitar, voice or what-have-you.

So apparently the brain or some other mechanism compensates each individuals response. In other words put 10 people in a room 5 that hate and five that love horns and each one of them can identify a live violin when they hear it.

Preferences are another matter, but it seems to me that peoples perception of how a speaker sounds should be independent of their personal hearing curve.

Two things stand out so far in this forum. People who love horns point out to their "clarity" and "lack of distortion" whereas those who hate it bring out "Makes my ears bleed" and "gives me headaches".

Certainly we must all admit that lack of distortion and listening fatigue do not go hand in hand as I know it. So can we begin to see that maybe something other than distortion or lack of is at play here?

Could it be time alignment? Or something as simple as frequency response?

Is "clarity" the result of a rise in a certain frequency range?

 

[Mark Seaton]

Hi guys,
Interesting discussion, and nice to see it remaining a discussion. I would like to point out that there are particular benefits to many different designs. Also, just because someone has done a good enough sales job to get something into production, doesn't mean it is a good design. Bass reflex systems often get a bad rap from the poor designs on the market. The fact is, it is easier to "mess up" a reflex design than a sealed, acoustic suspension system. In the case of a horn, it is even easier to mess up a design, yeilding poor results. Particular types of horns have recieved very bad raps for this very reason. Now given the presently smallish market for horn loudspeakers, it would make sense that within these smaller companies you will find some serious problems in their designs of such complex systems. As large as Klipsch is, I would point out that their heritage series has a distinct "house sound" which some will like, others will hate. Their current reference series is much closer to a neutral speaker, and I've heard best comments about their RF-7s.
Horns have particular issues to contend with while they provide definite advantages in specific performance details. The benefits can go much beyond just being loud.
As for hearing good sound at concerts, there are many factors behind what is often quite poor sound, and all I can say is that if any of you had caught Tom Petty's recent tour after July 1st, I know the front rows now have VERY good sound. A great sound engineer like on that tour is also very important.
Horns CAN sound very good, many designs can made to sound good in the right application and space. When I first heard a prototype pair of the Unity horns we sell I was working for a retailer at the time. I had recently installed a pair of Martin Logan Statements and Wilson MAXX's, along with using Aerial Acoustics, and NHT speakers regularly. There was no question in my mind, these were doing things NONE of the others did. A horn with mostly flat response can provide the immediacy of an electrostat, and the dynamics people like in speakers like Wilsons. If the horn has good pattern control over a wide frequency range, they can also greatly help reduce room problems. Of course many more horns are sold with significant problems than are those of great design.
Hope this adds some perspective,

 

[Jim_C]

>>Yeah, guess I was a little harsh. Sorry. But please re-read my earlier posts where I'm trying to stress this is all IMHO. And we all do hear differently, no doubt about that.

 

[Jim_C]

>>As large as Klipsch is, I would point out that their heritage series has a distinct "house sound" which some will like, others will hate. Their current reference series is much closer to a neutral speaker, and I've heard best comments about their RF-7s.

 

[DanaA]

As a long time listener of Klipsch (back to La Scalas in the 70's) and the owner of many other brands of speakers as well (currently own Klipsch, AR, NHT, and Polks), I think the new reference line is really nice sonically. Nonetheless, I have to agree about build quality, especially with the pegs that hold the grills on. Those things break with someone whispering in the room. As far as the rest of the build quality, so far, so good, even with 2 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, and numerous spills of the speakers. Nonetheless, those older speakers do seem built to last a lifetime and this is evidenced by so many still being around.

As far as the criticisms of horns, the thing I hate is the constant bashing. Are those people saying that it is their own opinion or are they bashing us horn owners as having no taste, as if they are superior to us. There are so many cliches being used over and over. I rarely bash another speaker type or brand (with an obvious exception) and never claim I can be the judge all of all that is good in sonics. Personally, I find it offensive.

 

[Mark Seaton]

I guess it depends on what you're used to from Klipsch. I'm certainly partial to the older speakers and the heritage series. One of the big complaints I've heard from many long time Klipsch owners is that the newer lines are really inferior when it comes to build quality.

I've listened to the newer lines but not enough to determine if they're more neutral. They're certainly different.

I temper my comments as I work for a loudspeaker manufacturer, so I will refrain from making any comments on build quality. What I should have said was that the better examples in the RF series have a much flatter response than more classic Klipsch loudspeakers.

I would just suggest that there are many other examples of horn loudspeakers on the market beyond Klipsch, and much like different conventional loudspeakers, everyone will find some speakers pleasing and others less so. In other words, don't dismiss all horns because you hear one you don't like.

 

[Chris Tsutsui]

Several months ago I auditioned the Avantgards Duo 3.0s in a Hotel sonic culture weekend and I posted my thoughts and review a while back.
Before you even consider these may I point out that they may not be in everyones price range. (Cheapest models are $4,000 up to $60,000+)
I know that there are audiophiles that will say horn speakers are "colored" or harsh sounding due to their previous experience with horns. This was definitly not the case with these duos. The president of Avantgarde even stated that horn speakers DID introduce a change in tonal balance that wasn't always pleasant, until they developed new technologies to use Horns for an advantage.
With an extremely large horn, their driver can then move less than a tenth of a normal high-end speaker. Acceleration lag and overshoot are minimized in addition to the use of lightweight rigid diaphragms and giant magnets used.
The Avantgardes were very natural sounding, producing a smooth and effortless range of sound. Definitly the most clearest and undistorted speakers I've ever heard. The advantage of these speakers was that they were able to settle down after each transient due to their very large magnets. (They use a 6lb magnet on just the tweeter) Basically the driver barely moves at all, the horn amplifies the sound to a small sweet spot, using the physics of the horn to an advantage and reduce the need of a crossover. (circuitry tends to reduce signal strength)
Avantgarde attempts to describe the speakers by comparing them to others on the market:
First imagine a hypothetical speaker:
* Transparency of a great electrostatic (quad, sound lab or ML); or ribbon (Apogee, Wisdom)
* Balance and authority of Dunlavy, JM labs Utopia, Goldmund Apologue
* uncolored mids of Verity Parsifal or Quad
* dynamics of Klipschorn
* Build quality of Wilson, Thiel, and Avalon
* Accuracy of timbre umatched in many areas, noticeable on vocals, instruments, and brass (which usually lacks weight and sonority)
* Effieciency from 102-110db so it's easy on amps with a benign 8 ohms
They also claim to produce imaging and soundstage much more precise than LIVE, with an emotional impact to put tears in your eyes. (I didn't get tears, just goosebumps every other song)
They don't use a crossover for midrange!, the musical signal passes directly from your amp to mid-range horn with nothing in its path for a more dynamic, detailed presentation. There is no passive crossover between mid and amp so physics (horn throat and bell) determines the roll-off.
Avantgarde states wide dispersion speakers are the wrong way to head, their speakers employ a controlled dispersion pattern so that ~85% sound directly reaches the ear so no room treatments needed.
Anyways the hotel demo lobby was roughly 15x35' and the speakers were roughly 20 feet from the back wall.
Equiptment List:
Avantgarde Duo series 3 - 104DB+ @ 1w/1m/8ohms - minimum 1.5 watts
ABS plastic w/Nextel 225 S/L CTRL subwoofers
$17,970 pair
Audiopax Model 88 Mono-Block Single Ended amp - 30wpc
MPS - matched power supply
PTS - Perfect Triode Simulation
Bandwidth (15hz to 90khz, -3db)
-$9,970 each
Hovland HP100 vacuum tube stereo preamp
input impedance: 100kohm
gain: 14db
Freq resp: +/-.25db, 10hz-25khz
THD:

 

[AaronMg]

Has anyone listened to Acapella horn speakers? Im going to audition these Bad Boys in several weeks. I'll let you guys know my thoughts.

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

This list is incomplete, still, points out the apparent consensus on the good qualities about Horn speakers:

a) Less distortion = Good
b) Less compression = Good
c) Less room interaction = Good
d) Better macro and micro Dynamics = Good

Now, on the negative side apparently we encounter opinions, nor facts like above:

1) For ones is Harsh is but for others is Clear

2) For ones Horns have "honk" sound for others the "honk" is only there in certain Horns.

Any comments?

 

[Jason_Me]

1) For ones is Harsh is but for others is Clear

2) For ones Horns have "honk" sound for others the "honk" is only there in certain Horns.

Anyone who thinks these attributes are true for all horns needs to check out the Avantgarde speakers Chris posted.

 

[Alex F.]

As I mentioned in that other thread, I must find time to hear an Avantgarde system. The unusually positive review in Stereophile piqued my interest in them. The good words here have only added to it. They might be stunning with my Audible Illusions tube preamp and Beard tube power amp (100 watts/channel is overkill, but the amp remains in Class-A mode for the initial 25 watts output).

Chris and Jason, thank you!

 

[Saurav]

Try Oris horns too - they're available for DIY, or pre-built through (I think) Welborne Labs. Some people have preferred them over Avantgarde. If you get the parts and put the speakers together yourself, the price comes in at around $4K, much less than the $17K or so for the Duos (these numbers are completely from memory, so they could be off).

 

[Jim_F]

To my ears, "everything else" wins. I enjoy horns in much the same way that I enjoy the sound of a dozen screaming cats fighting in a room full of empty pie tins while being scolded by a flock of crows.

YMMV

(TBH, Altec 604 Duplexes were some of the better drivers I've ever heard, but there are a lot of ways to good sound, and I tend toward a different direction.)

edit: I guess that should be a murder of crows.

 

[John F. Palacio]

>>As large as Klipsch is, I would point out that their heritage series has a distinct "house sound" which some will like, others will hate. Their current reference series is much closer to a neutral speaker, and I've heard best comments about their RF-7s.