HK 525 vs Denon 3803? (1 Viewer)

[Phil*K]

Don,

Not to start a war but........

I'm not the only reviewer who thought the 520 sounded bright.

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I counted 8 reviews of the 3802 counting the one you quoted and 7 of the were absolutel glowing.

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http://www.whatvideotv.com/testbench...AVR-3802.shtml

http://thestar.com.my/audio/review.a...&sec=audiofile

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/test...onAVR-3802.php

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The Denon is having several problems right now. It is the highest rated receiver at Audioreview and other than Bryans DOA I would be very interested in hearing any problems that have croped up about the 3803 or 3802 for that matter.

Jeff, I agree completely, but I would still take the 4802. It just my opinion. You have to buy what your ears like.

Again, I appologize for starting the war. It would have been more prudent to restrain my opinion. Buy what you like the HK just wasn't for me.

Phil

 

[jeff_coil]

Me too!

 

[Jamey F]

The only thing it lack is a RS-232 port which I would have like to have.

It has it. It just requires an adapter.

 

[Phil*K]

Jamey,

Really, that's great. I knew it had a serial port, but I didn't realize you could connect an RS-232. Can you tell me more about that and can you use that for future upgrades or is it just used for control.

Thanks,

Phil

 

[Doug Brewster]

For all who are interested,

Here is a link to Comparison of sub-$1000 receivers/pre-pros

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=181468

This guy is an expert and conducts "double-blind" tests on equipment. He is quite objective and supportive of just about anyone's preferences, but he is also clinically accurate and draws definite conclusions. The problems with the 8000 are way over-exaggerated. By the way, he bought an HK 8000.

Phil*K,

First, you in no way offended me. These forums are supposed to be lively. You did this without intending to insult me and I hope you received my comments in the same manner. If I offended you, I offer my deepest apology. I believe you and I have different viewpoints and that's what makes these discussions worthwhile.

As far as price goes, I paid $699 for my 525 and authorized dealers all over the internet have been selling them for this price or less; often including shipping. The 8000 can be had for as low as $1200 (authorized dealer).

Re: "the number of Open box 520 you find at CC", if they sold Denon, the case would be the same. All microelectronics are subject to problems related to be mass manufactured and Denon has as many problems as HK - more, actually because more are sold. Among the "best" home theater units has been Outlaw Audio and their problems are among the worst. They have had great customer service and great products however, and people tend to be very enthusiastic about them.

Re: Denon as a pre-pro for home theater, I can offer no argument. It is superior (and at a higher price point). It's processor and capabilities are unquestionably better FOR HOME THEATER. As far as music and amplifiers are concerned, HK hands down... AND this thread was initiated with a comparison of the 3803 and 525 for music. Your experience with the 525/520 is unusual and would definately fall into a small minority...I'm guessing, just you and Gary Raskin . Your ears are your ears and I believe the 3803 to be a good piece of equipment from a fine company. I also believe that the HK is a better buy, a better music receiver, and objectively less bright than nearly anything by Yamaha (near the price point), but don't know how it compares to the 3803 (objectively) in this regard.

I would still take the 8000 for $1200 ahead of the 5803, but if price was no problem, I'd consider the 5803 superior - however, the logic 7 on 5.1 sources would still lead me to the HK.

Just an opinion.

Doug

 

[Phil*K]

Doug,

You didn't offend me at all. The 699 you paid is about right compaired to what I paid for my 3803 about 200 difference which is the difference in suggested retail.

The number of open box 520s well they far out number the open box Onkyos and Pioneers that they sell at the same store and there have been a few post by CC employee that have mentioned that the HKs are the most returned receiver. Tweeters offers the same 30 day money back guarranty as CC and I have never seen an open box Denon at Tweeters.

Small minority, well maybe, but then who's going to say the receiver they decided to keep doesn't sound good as good as another receiver. As far a my ears and Yamahas, maybe you should listen to some of the new ones The RX-V2300 should be in the same price range.

The HK is a better buy, well its certainly less expensive, but that doesn't necessarily mean better buy. The sure features alone of the Denon are IMO more than worth the extra 200. Not to mention the superior components. considering that I like the Denon better for both music and HT thats just icing on the cake for me.

Logic 7, well I only had the 520 for a short time and I know that a lot of people like it, but it really didn't do much for me. But then I didn't like the sound of the HK anyway and it may have nothing to do with Logic 7

I prefer to listen to my music in the format that it wsd recorded in anyway. For Audio DVDs that are recorded in dolby or dts I usually listen to them in 5.1 mode because that's what the artist intended and anything else is fake. Of course if it has DTS ES that's a different story.

As far as the 520 selling more units. Less expensive receivers usually sell more. But, I'd still like to see where you got your numbers.

Just another opinion

Phil

 

[Phil*K]

Mike,

First great post.

Second, while I'v got you here two things. First I wanted to let you know that I did the processor reset that you suggested and it did make a noticeable improvement.

My last question would be to pick your brain about you HK CD recorder and the main question that I have is what would be the advantage of using that versus copying CD on you computer. Other than you could possible record from other sources.

Phil

 

[Phil*K]

Mike,

Thanks, that was very informative and makes perfect sense. I'm only cloning at the moment so I'll keep using my PC. But when I start recording from alternate sources I'll pick up a unit.

Have a good one,

Phil

 

[Doug Brewster]

I said (meant) that Denon sells more units, not HK, and consequently you will find more posts about problems with Denon than with HK. Denon's reputation for quality control and customer service has also been questioned (as falsely based as HK's). The problems referred to in the older model HK's were common and due to quality control issues in a new factory setting. The newer model problems have included shutdown (520) but are generally the result of mismatched impedence and are not associated with the manufacturing or design.

By the way, I have compared the new Yamaha's to the new Denon's (HK is usually not found in the same shop as these, but in stores that carry Onkyo or another brand) and the Denon is much less bright and harsh. I'd recommend it over Yamaha. Even the salesman at the shop (who prefers Yamaha and has sold audio for 30+ years) stated that Yamaha's are brighter - it's just what he prefers. My preference is still HK.

Re: the hiss of the 8000, not a problem unless you consider it a problem - it interferes not at all when the receiver is used to listen to anything. It's absent at these times. The hiss was heard in a short run of production and has been corrected since (and nonexistant prior)... That's why you should always buy from someone who is authorized or can give you 100% money back if you're disatisfied.

Re: current ratings, I did check, the HK was rated by the manufacturer at 70 wpc and the 2802 was manufacturer rated at 91 wpc - and they both produced the same wattage and current was not addressed (reserve power, which is what is needed for peaks in sound - particularly important for music). Your argument would have been stronger if you'd sited the 3801 (rated @ 105) which did 92 wpc and is much closer to the 3803. No argument about the processors, etc. being superior in the 3803. Of course, I'd have countered with, "For that price you could get an 8000 that yielded 116 wpc."

Logic 7 is considered superior for listening to music, (regardless of performance specs) by those who are considered audiophiles (I'm not one).

Since we're talking about outdated models, I have owned a Denon 2500 (rated at 85 wpc), a 520 (75 wpc) and a 525 (70 wpc) and there is no way that the Denon yielded as much power in 2 channel mode. Additionally, the base was boomy, thin, and the mid's were harsh. It was not suitable for listening to music and I used another system for that. Again, HK is considered superior for listening to music, Denon superior for home theater.

And then we come to "features alone of the Denon are IMO more than worth the extra 200"... Perhaps I should use the phrase IMO more often. To me, it's worth the $200 savings to get the product that does the best job, IMO, of what I want from my receiver - excellent music capability with good home theater sound. Let me say this, the money you paid at an authorized dealer was an excellent bargain. I have not heard the 3803, neither in my home nor in a store. As a matter of fact, $699 is the absolute top dollar that I could afford to pay (actually, at the time it was $599 which I paid for the 5 channel 520. I will receive a full refund 7 months later, add $100 and have a 7 channel 525). Now, is the 3803 as capable with music as the 525? Perhaps, but that has not been Denon's reputation, the refund option is not available and the initial outlay is higher. If, this product fails for any reason while I own it, a full refund is avalilable. I, again and always, will recommend the 525 over the 3803 for music (and if purchased at Costco) to Dan Diesel. Ditto the 8000 if purchased from an authorized dealer for $1200. IMO it would depend on his budget. If he asked for a recommendation for home theater, I would defer to your recommendation of the 3803.

Thanks for the exchange. It's what this forum is all about.

 

[Phil*K]

Doug,

First, yest I've heard that the customer service on Denon is difficult to work with. But, when I first got on this site I searched Denon and other than complaints about their warranty ie, not allowing it for non authorized dealers I saw very few post about Denon problems. Please show me the threads about Denon problems.

The 520, 320, etc shutdown problems are cited on this site on numerous occations and was blamed on by HK to be faulty home wireing. Considering that I haven't seen similar posts about other receivers. I have to conclude that its a design problem. As one poster pointed out I opened the unit and I couldn't believe how cheap the heat sink was. Personally I HK did a poor job of designing the heat handle capacity of those receivers and when they got hot they shut down. Of course we didn't mention the numerous post about the seventh channel not functionin in Logic 7 problem but then that another can of worms.

The hiss of the 8000. I understand that owners of this unit and ones who probably can't take it back say its not a problem. For me I would have been outraged no matter what I paid for the unit. Frankly if it was the Cheapest receiver money could buy I would have been pissed and if I could it would have gone back ASAP. But, for a flagship receiver to have that problem, well if I had no choice I would have lived with it, but you can bet that I would have heard it every time and it would have bugged the s**t out of me. Just the way I am. Enough said.

Current ratings: Yes it may have been better to cite the 3801, but Mike was trying to make the point that a unit that cost 200 less had the same power. And, well 92wpc is still 20wpc more than the 520.

Back to the 8000: The 1200 you would pay for the unit is still 300 more than I paid for the 3803. But, the main thing to think about is why a 2700 dollar receiver has been discounted so much. Its called supply and demand.

The Yamaha is brighter than the Denon: Agreed, but that wasn't my point. I said I felt the HK was brighter than the Yamaha.

Yes, I think that CC has a great trade up program. Unfortunatel with the possible exception of the Onkyo SR800. they don't have a receiver I would buy. But I did buy my Interludes there and I have a HK FL 8380 CD player which for the money I'm very happy with.

I'm glad you found what you wanted in a receiver for what you could afford. As far as which one has the better 2 channel stereo sound we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Hell even my Parrot sings to it and he's never done that before, lol. BTW, I still have 15 days left on my audition of the Denon, but I have finally found my receiver.

Better deal: Well IMO there's no reciever at the 3803's price point and IMO several hundred dollars more that compairs to it for sound quality in both 2 channel stereo and HT and the quality of components. All of that for the 920 I paid for it and you'll never convince me that the 525 is a better deal. But we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well.

Logic 7: I could care less about it. I would have never used it anyway. But I do love the Denon's Widescreen for watching TV. You can say what you want about that.


Dan, just find a place that will allow you to audition each product for 30 days and let your ear decide. If you like the 525 better than Costco would be a great place to buy it.

Peace,
Phil

 

[Doug Brewster]

Phil*K

If you have not found the Denon problems posted, you've not sought them.

If you think that the 3803 and the 525 are the same price you have been shopping Circuit City - even they will price match (at many stores) with authorized internet dealers.

If you think that the 8000 is not an excellent buy you have not examined the posts referenced here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=181468

If you would rather have the Onkyo than the HK your preference is overshadowing all available information... Like the rest of us. You like what you like and are not going to attend to the negative information about it; only the negative information about what you don't like. I am guilty of the same crime. That's what makes horse-races.

"Dan, just find a place that will allow you to audition each product for 30 days and let your ear decide. If you like the 525 better, then Costco would be a great place to buy it."

Back on track. It seems, after all, we agree.


Doug

 

[skip marr]

For the "What it's worth column"...anyone have any thoughts on Pioneer Elite, specifically model VSX-45TX? I went to Marvin's in Ft. Worth today, discussed HK, Denon, Rotel, Marantz, Arcam, etc. The sales guy was actually a tech filling in during a busy afternoon. He indicated that the PE unit was the best value on the market, with the best sound. He said it was 100% torridal power. Any comments??

 

[Phil*K]

Doug,

I didn't say I saw no problems, I said I saw very few, which mike covered very well already.

If I think that the 3803 and the 525 are in the same price point then I must be shopping at CC: From looking at internet vendors there continues to be about a 200 diffence in the lowest price available. But, like Mike I would not buy any product from a dealer that was not authorized.

If I liked the Onkyo better than HK, my preferance is overshadowing "ALL" available information. Pretty bold statement. I'm sure there are more than a few Onkyo owners on this site that would disagree with that. Again, as Mike said, I'm not saying you have lousy taste, I'm saying I have different taste. S**T happens.

The only thing that we agree on is Costco. I have purchased many products from them and they stand behind what they sell and you'll never have a problem returning any product.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Phil*K]

Mike,

When I first hooked up my Denon to my VCR, with an S-Video, I had the "green and red" scroll bars. Very light but I hate anything that's wrong with a new system. Thinking that I might be getting some type of interference I moved my S-Video cable and haven't had the problem since. I'm not sure if this will help the rest who have had this same problem.

Phil

 

[Doug Brewster]

Mike: HK is dark? I thought it was bright... Or is it harsh. These terms do not mean the same thing. I believe we are experiencing a failure in terminology. Perhaps that is what has caused some of the disagreement. Dark is not a term I'd ever heard applied to HK, but then, I'd never heard bright applied until here either. Perhaps it is best to say that HK has a distinct "flavor" of sound and it is not one you care for. It is known to be warm and laid back. That is the way I like my music. Denon is not known for a neutral sound either. It is known for a generally more neutral sound than Yamaha, Sony, etc. It's actually considered warmer than those products as well... Not generally as warm as HK.

Mike and Phil: Since I didn't spend much time in this forum until the past week I will have to say you must be right about the infrequency of Denon complaints here. In the AVS forum they are quite common: at least as common as HK complaints.

Mike: "AVR-520's inaccurate DTS LFE" is a problem I've heard about and seen an easy work-around suggested. Since it isn't a concern for me I failed to write it down and can't source it.

"Denon's FLAGSHIP AVR-5803..comparable to the competition." This whole section is a bit muddled. There are current receivers mentioned, past receivers mentioned, current past receivers, AVR and Stereo receivers, and finally Bose. In between is, " Funny how HK didn't use a standard that can be compared to the competition." You have you statemnt backward. HK's standard is truer and more accurate. No Kidding! It's the competition who uses a non-standard standard.

"+/- 45 amps" is reserve power. It is drawn on when needed for short bursts (common in music programs).

"The audiophiles at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity didn't find Logic7 superior." These folks are audiophiles? Home theater experts perhaps...perhaps. If you re-read the article you will see that they are not talking about music. "PL II Movie is an improvement not only over Pro Logic but all other matrix decoding formats I have heard, and this includes 6-Axis, Logic 7, Circle Surround 5.1, and DTS Neo:6." The entire review was about home theater and not music. This is the point I've made ad nauseum. The question posed was regarding a music oriented receiver.

"Myself, I don't like HK's receivers and I don't like buying from a dealer who isn't authorized. Some...pass off products that should be recalled or that have other problems, where authorized dealers have sent that product back to the manufacture for replacements." Both wrong and right but I agree with your sentiments about unauthorized dealers. If you buy from one you are not able to get factory warrantee. Costco's is better than the factory...unless you have a dead remote or some minor problem and they no longer have the receiver (or any high fidelity product) in stock. By the way, jandr.com is an authorized HK dealer and the 8000 and 52x products are available there. They will price match Costco (and undercut them) and ship for free - at least that's what I've seen and what I've seen others post.

Phil: I took a shot at you about Onkyo and I'd like to apologize. I just know that the entire new Onkyo line has had multiple problems and/or degradation in quality and in no way compares with the past. Again, I was running out of time and should have considered you worthy of a more revealing argument and not a put-down. You've not done that to me. I'm truly sorry to have done it to you.

To both of you again,

I am not saying either of you have bad taste. I honestly feel that the HK is known for and does a better job of music at the price point. That was what Dan asked about. I even suspect the 3803 to be a better receiver in many ways and probably in all ways at it's price point (the $900 range). I would not hesitate to be proud of one if I owned it. The truth is, I can't afford it emotionally - it isn't worth the extra money to me as I don't like the color of sound... and I hate the remotes that are manufactured by Denon. If someone gave me a 3803 I'd take my HK back. If they were available for the same price, I'd still buy the HK due to the Costco deal and my many adventures with microelectronics - am currently on my 3rd cell phone that "we never have any trouble with" is the latest example.

Doug

 

[Doug Brewster]

Skip

The avs forum has lots of posts about this line. The previously linked thread has some of them.

Doug

 

[Phil*K]

Doug,

Are we having fun yet.

You didn't offend me about the Onkyo, I don't own one. I just thought it was bold of you to say that everyone liked HK better than Onkyo. I find that very hard to believe.

If this is ok with Mike he didn't say he thought the HKs were bright and harsh, I did. What he did say was that he has seen reviews of HK products that called them bright and harsh. I'll let him speak for his take on the sound. I happen to agree with his taste in music and prefer to add my own color if that's what I wanted.

I think that both Mike and I have been very focused on the sound of the two receivers in music. Again, I listen to stereo CDs in Stereo mode. The Logic 7 is a non issue to me.

I've never seen an older Denon remote, the one with the 3803 certainly could be improved esp those small buttons, but you get use to it. I honestly have to say, however, that the worst remote I have ever used was the 520's remote. The best that I've used would have to be the Onkyo's and the Yamahas are about tied with the Denon.

I know that this is going to sound harsh and I really mean no disrespect to you or anyone who likes HK. We are all different, but the thought of owning another HK makes my ears hurt. So if someone gave me one I'd either give it back or give it to my daughter who doesn't live with me. If she didn't want it I'd give it to charity. But, really this is just my feelings about it.

Having said this don't you think its time to quit this. Neither of us are going to change our minds. Lets just enjoy what system we have and leave it at that.

Peace,

Phil

 

[Dan_Diesel]

Hey Doug and Phil and all the other people that replied. Thanks for all your help. You guys are a lot of fun to read, I would love to be able to go to Costco to get the 525 but I read that is only a net deal that they have going. I would buy it on the net but they don't ship to Canada :frowning:

I can get the 525 here for about $1400CAD and the 3803 for $1950CAD both including taxes. And these are prices that are near the wholesale cost, so I don't think that I'll be able to get much more of a deal on them here in Vancouver. If I could find the 3803 for only $200 more then I might go for it but not for an extra $550

I have heard them both and I do like the two of them, but I wasn't able to do a head to head so I'm not sure which one I would like more. But for the price I think that 525 is pretty good and I was able to listen to it with my Studio 20's and my Studio CC and I do just get a WOW when I listen to them. Like say Eagles Hotel California the live version or the second last chapter of Gladiator with that Enya song my girlfriend got tears in her eyes. I was out at the time and she called me and told me she love the sound out of the system. And that surprised me couse she has been getting tired of all the HT talking that we've been doing.

But still I'm going to do a bit more looking around and maybe bring the 3803 home and do a head to head and see how that goes. And if I don't see a big difference then I think that I'll just keep the 525.
And if I do I might be going for the PA 4000 amp that HK has. I'll see if I need it or not after I get the Studio 60's for the front and probably the PW 2200 sub.

Thanks again for all your help guys

 

[Jason Brent]

Dan,

FWIW, I have the 525, Studio 60's, and CC up front. Also a PW2200.

Overall, I've been very pleased with the sound. I think you'll like that combo

 

[RyanW]

Dan,

Not sure if Costco is done with H/K but I am only showing the 8000 on the site today. However, I thought the 525 was going for 699 through Costco, but not for sure. Amazon has the 525 for 699 as well and they are authorized, maybe that will work for you.

Good luck!