High Resolution Audio Comparison (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

That is so pathetic. I guess that means overblown bass. It's a shame that there are recording and mixing engineers who seem to have no standards and who take no pride in their work.

A travesty. Here is the unconventional wisdom about my fellow recording engineer brethren...

The more popular the record, the more circuits and enhancers are used, and the lower quality of sound.

But to master to a car system?

What happens to those people who have the Mark Levinson Lexus system? They hear crap recordings also.

The best goal is to be a faithful and accurate to the music in both technical and emotional/performance terms.

And you can bet that these folks miked the daylights out of everything that moved in the studio on an overkill Neve mixing board.

Sad for the industry, but really sad for us consumers.

I have the Aerosmith Just Press Play SACD also and it is absolutely terrible sounding. Yuck!

Steve Tyler needs an education on product quality.

 

[KeithH]

Lee, it is sad what goes on in the recording studio. I wonder if any rock and pop artists hear their own CDs and come away truly disappointed with the results.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I wonder if any rock and pop artists hear their own CDs and come away truly disappointed with the results.

Keith,
A lot of the artists we would get in the studio for a Chesky session would tell us that they were impressed with the great lengths the team went to for good sound. They also tell numerous stories of short cuts and sloppy mic work and poor sonics at the big labels.
The problem starts with record engineering programs where emphasis is often on the biggest and baddest mixing board. No where does one get up and say, hey! the bigger the equipment the more corrupting circuits get in the way.
We once ran some feed thru a half million dollar Neve board and compared the sound degradation to our own simplistic, purist mixing gear. It was substantial. I would say "night and day" but someone might demand a double blind test
The best thing is for labels to recognize that overly processed pop creates a cycle of disposable music that "throws pop stars to the top of the charts" as Paul Simon once said and they crash down just as quickly. The trick is to find talent, record them naturally as possible, and actually develop them.
So I guess I am saying that the whole system is broke.
I mean I like Robbie Williams but EMI just signed him for $150 million!!!
This makes the Pariah Carey contract look like school lunch money.
No wonder this business is losing fans and shareholder profits...

 

[mike_decock]

Steve Tyler needs an education on product quality.

I was watching some thing on MTV a while ago and Aerosmith was recording the album themselves, digitally, in their "home studio". There was one clip of them putting a guitar/amp in the bathroom and drilling through the floor to get cables down to the studio.


-Mike...

 

[James Q Jenkins]

There has been data on this and SACD leads in sales by a substantial margin. There was Soundscan data on the Audio Asylum recently that showed this. Overall, SACDs are easier to find that DVDAs in my experience, in part due to more press coverage and twice (+) the number of titles.

Forgive me if I take this with a big grain of salt. Particularly since you hugely understated DVD-A's number of titles in the original article. And using something you read on Audio Asylum as a reference for the statement? Consider me skeptical.
Take the Stones Hybrids out of the mix (after all, 99.999% were purchased as CDs) and who knows? DVD-A is represented by some really big pop/rock sellers like Queen "A Night At The Opera", "Metallica", and "Steely Dan: Two Against Nature".
My local Best Buy hasn't significantly refreshed their SACD section in months, DVD-As seems to turn over well.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

My local Best Buy hasn't significantly refreshed their SACD section in months, DVD-As seems to turn over well.

Fine but that's just one store location. It is not indicative of overall trends. I have several friends that run audiophile labels and online retailers and they tell me overwhelmingly that Super Audio titles are selling like the proverbial hotcakes. Several also mention that DVDAs are much slower to sell.

 

[Kevin Deacon]

When I listen to a poorly mastered/recorded disk in my nice car system it sounds like pure BS. Even when I hear it in my wife's stock Ford Expedition system it sounds like pure BS. My Telarc recordings sound very nice in either vehicle, although quiet passages are hard to hear without adjusting the volume.

Give me quality recording/mastering or nothing!!!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

My Telarc recordings sound very nice in either vehicle, although quiet passages are hard to hear without adjusting the volume.

Kevin,
Good point. The better car stereos and even some average ones do a fine enough job that the sonic qualities of a Telarc shine through and a bad recording job are really highlighted.
Another example is Norah Jones debut album. This is very well recorded and her new popularity has her being played on store retail systems of very questionable quality. However, it still sounds pretty good. I heard her songs at Crate & Barrel on a mixed tape and her voice seemed louder due to accuracy compared to other songs they had mixed in.
The only way to do it is to preserve the accuracy.

 

[John-Miles]

Ok I have alot to say..... I just read through this whole post and whew there is alot to take in.
First of all Thank you Lee for putting this together, I appreciate the effort very much.
Second, before i go getting into any arguments i want to say bottom line that which one is better dosent matter as much as the titles they carry. if someone wanted tosell me N'Sync the actualy band for 5 dollars and they wpould follow me wherever i went and play live or the option of a 20 year old tape nearly worn through of Metallica's Kill em all for 50 dollars, well id ahve that old tape thank you very much. and its simply because i like metallica and i dont liek N'sync. the content will drive these formats plain and simple. (at least its plain and simple for me)
I guess the first big question I have is for Lee, can you please explain DSD a little more for me, or point me to a good article i can read. my current understanding of the situation is that SACD samples at 2.8 MHz 1 bit samples, so basically you have each bit referenced to the previous bit before it and it just says higher or lower. so here the critical thing becomes how much higher or lower? I assume this would be a fixed step size. however a fixed step size causes a number of problems, if the steps are too fine you will have a maximum slope which is not steep enough and if the steps are too high then you will constantly be overshooting and undershooting the target. of course PCM also has its problems with its lower sampling rate it will have much larger spaces in between each sample and i would assume the space inbetween these samples is approximated as a straight line?
Now i realize that alot of this is definitely comming down to nitpicking, but like i said before it dosent really matter to me which is better, id just like to know
the slope constraint is the biggest factor in my disbelieveing SACD when it comes right down to it both methods are approximating a curve by creating straight lines. the big difference is that SACD uses MUCH smaller lines, but they only have one of two possible slopes. whereas DVD-A has much larger lines, but their slope can vary to a much larger degree. Both seem valid methods for the approximation so i guess whichever one is better might be best left to your ear.
if you have any clarifications to this Lee I would love tohear it. On another note I must say i was surprised at the bias in the technical portion, before i read it i would ahve expected a more mathmatical approach and not to sound harsh and indeed no offence is taken but due to the lack of detail (i understand that was neededto make it more easily understood) you seemed to fall intot he same trap Sony often does. have you ever noticed that sony will tell you how their invar shadow mask is shaped different than an appreture grill, or mention their DRC circurty and they go on and on about how this improves the picture...... but they never seem to get around tot he why of it. sure a shadow mask may be better but why is it superior?
anyway thats about all i ahve to say for now, i did have more but as i read and wrote i forgot stuff
Oh yeah i almost forgot, discussing breakthrough discs for both formats while nice is in a way kind of pointless. what one person considers the height of perfection another personmight consider crap. SACD held no appeal to me until i heard OASIS and CCR were comming out on SACD. and likewise DVD-A would hold little appeal if not for Metallica Disturbed and a few others. so while i would definitely consider Metallica to be a huge album for the format (hell that aprticular album still sells over a million copies a year) you obviously did not consider it to the same magnitude. All im saying is that maybe there should ahve been some noted criteria as to what makes a breakthrough album for either format?
thanks again for the wonderful info Lee

 

[John-Miles]

oh yeah my local sony dealer and i had a conversation about this actually, we both found it kind of odd how there are twice as many sacd's out there as DVD-A's but every location in the city where i live carries DVD-A and not SACD. could be a corporate trend or just how they are selling, but it should be noted that dvd-a seemed to hit the mainstream albums first. stuff liek queen and metallica while sacd was still mainly about jazz and classical.

but hey thats just my opinion and what i seem to ahve noticed.

 

[Justin Lane]

As far as Audio Asylum goes, they are definitely biased toward Super Audio due to its sound, but this reference is to a post that had a link to actual Soundscan/Billboard industry totals.

Lee,

Could you please supply a link to the thread/article you are quoting for sales results? I would like to see what these sales results actually are instead of just hearing SACD sells more second second hand.

J

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Justin,
Sure, no problem. I have been searching for the link. I also thought that RIAA might have some data but their site is just a diatribe against downloading.
I will report when I find it. One problem that has been discussed with the SoundScan data is that a lot of audiophile sales do not get reported so the total impact of the high rez formats is very hard to track.
Also, the hybrids of popular discs like The Rolling Stones include both sales to CD redbook buyers and SACD fans and there is no legitimate way to break out the numbers.
The multi-platinum success of Hot Rocks, however, may be very good news as far as encouraging more big name bands to go Super Audio on their back catalog remasterings.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Duplicate post due to slow server.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

John,
You said:

The D-Map MixEQ module provides DSD mixing and equalization to DSD audio. According to the Sony Oxford staff, the D-Map MixEQ module "contains all the basic building blocks required to mix and add equalization to DSD audio streams and products." Applications that they envision for this module include building true DSD EQ and tone controls, building DSD mixers and surround panners, DSD faders, high quality surround mixers/workstations/recorders, high end SACD digital preamps and players and standalone DSD effects units.

The really good news is that these are cards which can be easily incorporated into other firm's editing products.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

John,
Here is official news from Sadie on how they can edit in full DSD:
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=14331499

SADiE officials stated that the integrity of the 64fs DSD signal is fully maintained throughout editing operations performed on the DSD2 workstation. Multiband Annex D&E metering of DSD signals is fully integrated for accurate visual monitoring of the DSD signals.

Enjoy!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

oh yeah my local sony dealer and i had a conversation about this actually, we both found it kind of odd how there are twice as many sacd's out there as DVD-A's but every location in the city where i live carries DVD-A and not SACD.

Two points: In Atlanta, the opposite is true and I don't think either of us can generalize about the overall market from either Canada or Atlanta.
Second, a lot of SACD fans order discs from global sources and from the web sites like Elusive Disc and Acoustic Sounds that cater to high end audio types. Seeing the discs is important in long-term but may not carry the ball in a grass roots effort that we are in.
I will not disagree that there needs to be more education and marketing for mass acceptance, but so far there is far more press coverage for Super Audio.
One more suggestion for your reading...Stereophile Guide to Home Theater has a good story on the two formats.
John Kotches, I guess they (SGHT) thought a better comparison was in order, again why not do one for Widescreen Review?
We could really offer up something great for the readers I think...
We could offer more industry sources of opinion and delve deeper into more technical matters.
We could capture the trends in the formats so far and provide a users guide like the Practical document...with the latest numbers on DVDA of course.
What do you think?

 

[mike_decock]

No amount of marketing is going to create "mass acceptance". The average consumer isn't dissatisfied with any aspect of the CD (except for price).

The only way to push hi-rez into the mainstream would be to force the market. The only one with the ability to do this is Sony is SACD and here is how:

STOP producing CDs altogether and make everything a hybrid SACD for the same price (or lower). Include a note in each SACD that even better sound can be achieved when played back in a SACD player.

Combine that software effort by stopping the production of CD players and making SACD equivalents of all those products (at the same price, of course).

Only Sony has the clout on the software and hardware side to pull off something so enormous.

Otherwise, both SACD and DVD-A are doomed to remain specialty niche market items like audiophile vinyl.


-Mike...

 

[KeithH]

Lee,
Interesting observations with the megabuck mixing stations. It's just like with audio components -- more circuitry is bad.
Mike,
That's a funny story about Aerosmith recording their own album. Well, that explains the lousy sound quality.
Excellent post regarding the future of the high-resolution formats. As I have said before, imagine if EMI remastered the Beatles catalog on single-layer SACDs. That would probably get a lot of people to buy SACD players. Of course, it would help if Sony would release some budget players again. I am not saying that releasing the Beatles on single-layer SACD is wise, but some people would buy SACD players as a result.
I agree that only Sony could pull off massive attack of high-resolution music on the market, but I don't think they will do it.
You said:

The average consumer isn't dissatisfied with any aspect of the CD (except for price).

I have made this point myself. Absolutely. I bought The Essential Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble and The Essential Santana two-CD sets over the weekend, and they sound incredible. There is no way the average listener would complain about the sound quality of these discs.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

I case you haven't noticed, my posting frequency is a bit less than usual. I have (almost literally) zero free time between now and Mid-January, with one open weekend between now and CES.

I will ask Gary and Perry about it at CES, after I have a couple of reviews that are due between now and then into them. Given my very full schedule, there's no point in discussing it prior to then with either of them.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

John,
No problem. We can do this later as your schedule improves.

It's just like with audio components -- more circuitry is bad.

Yes, Indeed.