"High Quality" 2 channel systems and HT (1 Viewer)

[BruceD]

Earl,

I'm not sure I quite understand, you said,

I once had a similar setup to what you are thinking about and the main problem was getting the correct time alignment because the mains had to go through the second pre-amp and this caused a slight change in the sound stage.

Are you implying that a 2-channel analog preamp is changing the time alignment of an analog signal to the main L&R speakers? I don't think so.

What makes you think that is the case?

It is certainly possible that the signal was frequency altered (distortion) by an analog preamp (especially tubes), but time alignment changes, nope.

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

Dougie
A fine tube pre will add "musicality" (whatever that means) to the amplified output. There are a lot of info regarding the subject on the net, you can do a search here on the HTF or on Google. Some will talk about the distortion differences between SS and Tubes, some others will say that tubes simply sound more "euphonic", in truth I think the explanation is not important at all. Try to find a place to listen to Tubes by yourself, that's all that matters.
I can't see any cons, only pro's. Well, unless you consider a con that it is more complex to have a pre just for music and don't like to change sources or something like that.

 

[EarlR]

BruceD,
In the setup I was talking about, I had a surround preamp sending the L&R main signal to my stereo pre-amp. My stereo pre had a pass through mode just for this. This allowed me to do my 2 channel listening with my stereo Classe but movies would be played through my surround pre-amp. This worked well but the L R mains signal still had to travel through the stereo pre and I could tell a difference in the sound stage between connecting this way and connecting the mains directly to the surround pre-amp. Maybe it was just me but I ended up geting the Theta Casablanca when it came out and eliminated this setup.

Earl

 

[BruceD]

Earl,

I understand, and do believe you could tell a difference between the L&R from the processor itself and the L&R with the added signal path of the Classe stereo preamp (tubed?).

My point is that it was probably due to frequency harmonics from the stereo preamp (especially if it was tubed) and not due to any kind of time alignment.

I'm sure you're more than happy with the Theta.

 

[Pete H]

I don't believe a preamp with a home theater pass-through colors the sound in any way, tubed or not. If it did I find it very difficult to believe it could be heard in a movie.

Whether a preamp with home theater pass-through rather than a home theater processor optimizes an individuals musical experience depends on the equipment being compared and the listener. I personally believe a Sim Audio P-3 or P-5 would be better than any home theater processor for music.

On the other hand, it seems to me that any reasonable av processor can do a movie. As far as I can tell av processors are separated by their features. The high quality processors may do music well, maybe even very well. However, they are designed to do many things other than music. Consequently the music reproduction is not up to the quality of a separate preamp.

IMO

 

[KeithR]

Craig, back to yhour original question.

The M20s definitely like softer ss or tubes in the chain. Rowland Concentra is pretty darn good with them, and I would recommend the BAT 300x as an audition. I would definitely not pair them with anyhthing Bryston. Classe may be another option. Krell will kill your ears...

FYI, the BAT has optional tube preamp stage that will really be ideal for you, and will never be a hassle. It is a pricy unit, but the BAT guys are extremely helpful and use the best parts available. Build quality is superb at over 50lbs as well. As far as power, the M20s like current, and the BAT has 300 into 4 ohms...not chump change. In fact, I was told of a demo in florida where they drove Thiel 7s to insame levels against ML 33Hs, and the little integrated was a winner sonically to awe of the crowd.

I would not recommend the ML 383--this is the single most lifeless integrated in the market--6k for boredom ain't worth it to me. It has a great remote, and is easy to use, but there is better value in the market for me.

The BAT VK75SE is the best amp I have heard for a reasonable price, and I was about to buy...however, the unit is very large, has enormous heat, wont fit in any rack. FWIW, BruceD, the 75SE has better bass than any SS amp I have heard...matching Krell FPBs in my opinion, and that of others. However, i would agree that tube amps are more susceptible to lack of bass---although many SS counterparts are lean as well.

Good luck!

KeithR

 

[Brett DiMichele]

I too am slowly integrating a 2Ch into a HT environment
(real slowly)

I don't have high end anything, I have a receiver and a
power amp and my mains are Bi Amped and they sit to either
side of a 61" 4:3 RPTV (Read HUGE.. Over 5.5' tall) and I
have to completely disagree that the RPTV affects the
imaging of the speakers.

I run my mains Left main 2' away from the RPTV 2' off the
wall and the Right main is roughly 3.5' away from the RPTV
and 2' off the wall. I have both toed in 15 degrees and
toed up 30 degrees.

My sound stage is dead balls on, In fact yesterday I was
listening to Manheim Steamroller (Christmas Extrordinare)
and I literally walked over to the Center Channel because
it sounded like it was on (even though the *shudder* Receiver
said I was in Direct Mode)

My sound stage never ceases to amaze me. I closed my eyes
and I could point to every location of every single instrument
in the piece I was listening to..

All of this from MidFi equipment!

So what are my plans? I am 80% happy with the sound I get
now... But that other 20% drives me nuts!

I want a good Tube Pre and a great CD Transport.. And I
want much better solid state amplification...

That's the distant future though, I am in no rush, this is
a slowly on going upgrade process and it's absolutely fun
as it should be..

 

[Mike_Ch]

Brett,

My sound stage is dead balls on, In fact yesterday I was
listening to Manheim Steamroller (Christmas Extrordinare)
and I literally walked over to the Center Channel because
it sounded like it was on (even though the *shudder* Receiver
said I was in Direct Mode)

I had a similar experience the other day. Was watching the Harry Potter dvd, and was kind of bothered by the fact the surrounds didn't seem to be as active as usual, although the dialog seemed to be more clearer than usual. I listened for another 10 minutes or so, then checked out the settings on the receiver- turns out it was in DIRECT and not DD, so I was just listening to the front mains. Seems incredible that I heard sounds behind me, can't wait till I get the Accuphase cd transport/pcm processor to see how much better DD sounds in 2.0 compared to 5.1
Cheers,
Mike

 

[EricMen]

I'm another one who would like to add HT to a 2CH system. I am also fortunate enough to be upgrading everything, albeit long overdue.

Since 2CH is my priority, I have discovered that the surround pre/pros out there do not "do" 2CH for my taste until you get into the Theta, Proceed, perhaps Anthem range (once again, my taste outdoes my budget).

So if I'm understanding correctly, I can go with amp/pre separates or an integrated unit for 2CH and add a Receiver in front for HT, and even another amp and only use the Receiver for the surround processing.

I'm a little unclear as to how this would all connect for HT. Would I need a preamp with HT bypass?

I have found and been considering a 5.1 channel analog preamp (i.e. Audio Refinement or McCormack) and a DVD player with the processing on board (i.e. Denon 3800). This would require an additional amp, but I don't consider that a bad thing.

Any thoughts on the 5.1 channel analog preamp and/or versus the HT Receiver concept and the connections with this setup?

Thanks.

 

[Scott Oliver]

EricMen,
You can find an answer to your question about how to connect a 2 channel preamp and a HT reciver or processor in this thread
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=128292

 

[Ricky T]

Eric,

The Aragon Soundstage has "inside" the top-of-the-line Aragon Aurum preamp (original retailed ~ 2k in 1990, w/o a remote). The Soundstage also sounds fantastic in 5.1...kind of what you are looking for...a 5.1 prepro with audiophile design. Retail 4k, now about $1400-1500 used, and can be upgraded to full 7.1 for $800 (you don't need this IMO with a 5.1 setup). See the klipsch/aragon website. Full balanced outs too. I always thought that no digital prepro can match a highend 2 channel preamp, but I think the Soundstage is an exception.

The onboard dacs are also indistiguishable to my ears against my Parasound HD1600 dacs with four premium burr-brown 63K dacs. And this resolution applies to all 5 speakers and sub.

 

[EricMen]

Thanks for the link, Scott. I must have read it ten times already.

Thanks also, Ricky, for the Soundstage suggestion. I have found good reviews and a few used at the price you mentioned. I am seriously considering it as that is what I am looking for - a good 2CH preamp first, HT decoding second.

Anyone have thoughts/opinions on the 5.1 channel analog preamp/DVD processor combo?

Eric

 

[Scott Oliver]

My thoughts on that question Eric is that I hope both go the way of the dinosaur. The corporations need to get their act together and approve a universal digital link for multi-channel audio. Once that is done then the real need for a 5.1 analog preamp or 5.1 processor passthroughs will be gone.
I've got my fingers crossed!

 

[Thomas_Riel]

Newbie question. This is a great subject and I would appreciate your input. I just purchased a Sony DA4ES HT receiver to replace my 1978 Sansui AU517 integrated amp. There is no comparison when listening to 2 channel music as the '78 Sansui was noticeably superior. I want to incorporate the Sansui with the Sony so I can have the best of both worlds. My question is how do I do it? The back of the Sansui has 4 settings underneath the pre-out jacks. They are: Connected, Separated, Direct Coupled and Capacitor Coupled. I would prefer to attach my turn table and CD player directly to the Sansui while hooking up the DVD player through the Sony and then to the Sansui. Is this possible?

Thanks...........Tom

 

[Scott Oliver]

What do you mean by pre-outs, are you confusing these with what are actually the inputs for the Sansui integrated. I am just kind of doubting a 1978 stereo integrated having pre-outs let alone 4 of them.
On the other hand your Sony receiver will need to have preouts to connect it to the Sansui.
As far as what connected, direct coupled, etc. does or means you will have to do some research for I have no clue.

Assuming the Sansui has three inputs and the Sony has preouts then yes you could connect them and in the link I included above it talks about how to do this, just got to get to the middle of the thread to find it.

 

[Roger_Martinez]

in the same boat here, listening primarily to 2 channel music but want the capabilities to do 5.1 surround for movies and dvd-a. i heard that they will re-release dark side of the moon on dvd-a soon, and so i want to have a pretty sweet system to listen to it on.

my system so far consists of :

martin logan aerius fronts
denon avr-3300 integrated reciever (85 w/c at .001 thd x 5)
denon cd player/burner forget the model
playstation2 dvd player (cringe)

first of all, i haven't yet listened to these speakers with any other amp/pre amp so i would wonder what they would sound like with better components....my guess is that they would sound better but i've also heard good things about the denon.

i guess my next question then is how to incorporate new equipment to best utilize what i have so far...

i'll tell you what i'm looking at so far. the dealer here has a demo pair of ML Ascents that i could get for around 3700 ....coupled with the cinema or theater center and maybe an svs sub. the aerius (sp?) speaks then would go in the rear to complete the system.

now i could use the denon in stereo for the rears and for the surround processing and then buy a seperate 3 channel amp/ preamp for the front???? does this take care of dvd-a or does the dvd player do that?


this is probably too much for now, but honestly any advice would be seriously considered, thanks.

 

[Scott Oliver]

Lots of questions there Roger.

What is your budget? Must be decently sized if your are considering those Ascents and Cinema plus a sub, or would that be sucking up a large part of your budget?

My second question to you would be are you highly interested in multi-channel music or just wanting to focus on better stereo listening? For as you can see must of this discussion has been about improving the front two channels only for music. With that in mind a lot of this discussion has been about adding a separate 2 channel preamp to an HT system, however for multichannel music this wouldn't have much of an effect and in some cases possibly could be worse. Who knows, lots of variables and combinations out there???

To tell you the truth Roger I have been mulling over suggestions for a while now and I think you should just stick with the Denon for now. As long as it has 5.1 inputs, which I imagine it does, then you can do multi-channel audio. To do multi-channel audio you will need to get a such a player. There are lots of options for SACD players, DVD-A players, or combi players that add one or both of those options plus DVD-V.

If you do also upgrade your speakers like you are thinking of doing, then go for it but accustom yourself to the new sound of your system before looking for further upgrades.

My 2 cents.

 

[Craig_Kg]

If multichannel DVD-A or SACD is REALLY important to you, then I'd try to get hold of a 6 channel preamp like the Sony TAP-9000ES (if you can still find one).

 

[Roger_Martinez]

well guys, thanks for the replies.....

unfortunately for me, i have many decisions to make and i've just got to figure out what my priorities are.

6 week old baby and wife make things a little tricky....they won't break me though......music is more important than granite countertops right????? right.

no really, after i decide on the digital source to get, (read a good review on marantz's combi dvd-a/sacd player) i need to decide whether or not i can live with ML's any longer or whether i just need to start over and start paying attention to my secret lovers the aerial acoustics speakers. yikes....this could get expensive...

yeah, i think i'm going to have to start over, dangit...


scott, at least you have allowed the denon to stay for a while, that should save some hassles.....for now!!

hook em horns, native houstonian here.

 

[Scott Oliver]

I am actually a transplanted Razorback by birth
And I didn't say anything about starting over. Martin Logan makes very good speakers and your Denon is a good choice for a receiver. Now if you are wanting to change from Martin Logans then go for it, but I would also say you should hold on to the Denon and let it do its 5.1 processing and amplification thing then add a seperate 2 ch pre/amp or an integrated as talked about in this thread. Trying to get a perfect soundfield out of 5 individual speakers and then amplfying them well can get very expensive as you probably know since you are considering 10K worth of speakers.