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Help with speakers for Denon AVR-2311

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by rkg65, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. rkg65

    rkg65 Member

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    I upgraded to the Denon AVR-2311 two-and-a-half years ago.

    I have so far continued using the speakers from my old system comprising of the Technics SB-A37 front speakers (floor standing) and the Technics SB-CSS70 centre and surround speakers. Unfortunately my Technics SB-W33 sub-woofer is not 'powered' and could not be used with the Denon 2311.

    Although the speakers are in good condition, I am considering upgrading the speakers package. The dealer advices me to continue using the Technics SB-A37 front speakers and change only the rest.

    Any recommendations? Also, besides age, what else makes these speakers outdated or incompatible with the modern AVRs?
     
  2. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    Nothing makes a speaker "outdated" except your need/want for a change.

    Why is your present subwoofer "non-compatible"?

    There are hundreds of mono amps out there. Here's three right here...
    http://www.htd.com/Products/subwoofer-amplifiers
     
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  3. gene c

    gene c Well-Known Member

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    You could also cut a hole in it and slap a cheap plate amp on it.

    http://www.parts-express.com/cat/subwoofer-plate-amplifiers/332

    We usually recommend the center speaker be from the same series and manufacturer as the front speakers since they often times are all reproducing the same sounds at the same time. If you still want to change speakers then a budget would be helpfull. I, like a few others around here, buy all my speakers on the used market. Much more bang for the buck. Used speakers are a fairly safe bet.
     
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  4. rkg65

    rkg65 Member

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    Thanks Gene. The amp plate sounds like a good idea!

    My present passive sub-woofer (Technics SB-W33) has the following specs:-

    Type : 1-way, 1-speaker bass reflex
    Speaker : 30 cm (12") cone type
    Impedance : 8Ω
    Input Power : 200W (Music) / 100 W (DIN)
    Output sound pressure level : 800dB/W (1.0) m
    Frequency Range : 38Hz - 3kHz (at - 16dB), 45Hz - 1kHz (at - 10dB)
    Dimensions (W x H x D) : 495 x 380 x 295 mm
    Weight : 10 kg

    Which plate amp should I go in for?
    Also what is the difference between 'Music' and 'DIN'....(200W Music, 100W DIN)?

    Coming to my Existing Main Speakers (Technics SB-A37), I found the following link which describes them (with pictures):-
    http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/210330-technics_floor_standing_speakers_sba37

    Are these speakers any good by today's standards?
     
  5. rkg65

    rkg65 Member

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    Thanks Gene. The amp plate sounds like a good idea!

    My present passive sub-woofer (Technics SB-W33) has the following specs:-

    Type : 1-way, 1-speaker bass reflex
    Speaker : 30 cm (12") cone type
    Impedance : 8Ω
    Input Power : 200W (Music) / 100 W (DIN)
    Output sound pressure level : 800dB/W (1.0) m
    Frequency Range : 38Hz - 3kHz (at - 16dB), 45Hz - 1kHz (at - 10dB)
    Dimensions (W x H x D) : 495 x 380 x 295 mm
    Weight : 10 kg

    Which plate amp should I go in for?
    Also what is the difference between 'Music' and 'DIN'....(200W Music, 100W DIN)?

    Coming to my Existing Main Speakers (Technics SB-A37), I found the following link which describes them (with pictures):-
    http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/210330-technics_floor_standing_speakers_sba37

    Are these speakers any good by today's standards?
     
  6. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    Technics made some good speakers. Kind of like Yamaha does now. "Cheap Technics" speakers were Panasonic Thrusters. Panasonic and Technics are the consumer brands of Matsushita. Technics still, sorta, exists in home turntables.

    DIN vs "music" is like everything else "DIN". European standards are tougher than American. The most common DIN is in cars. You see motors that have 300hp and 220 DIN. DIN requires all accessories and exhaust attached to the engine. The parasitic loss is 80hp.

    Have never checked what "DIN electrical" standards are, but I'm guessing they require more full range signal be used instead of "picking one" like in the US.

    The reality is, you could probably get up to a 300w amp as you'll likely never send more than 1/3-1/2 of the required signal to reach the 300.
     
  7. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    The only "demerit" on those speakers is the use of, what looks like in the pics, a paper tweeter.

    But, when those where made, there was nothing "else". Dome tweeters were the realm of speakers costing 5-10 times what these cost when new. There was a time graphite woofers belonged to $3000 speakers. Now graphite exists in $100 speakers.

    Point being, they sound like every other speaker of that vintage. Look up the fan base for Pioneer speakers around the same time. The HPM 100 made such a splash that Pioneer could put out almost anything and people would buy it.
     
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  8. gene c

    gene c Well-Known Member

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    DIN Deutsches Institut für Normung

    It basically means a comtinuous stream of noise. You sub would be 200 watts "peak" but 100 watts continuous. Continuous is also reffered to as RMS Root Mean Square.

    I'm not a subwoofer expert by any means but that's about as bad a specification for a subwoofer as I've ever seen. If it's 45 hz at -10 db then it will be well over 50 hz at the standard -3 db. It's also an 8 ohm speaker which cuts the amps power down. To get 100 watts is going to cost more then a new and better subwoofer would cost. I wouldn't spend too much on a plate amp for it. If you still want to do it then the SA 70 for $60 is about the most I'd pay but the Dayton SUB-1000 ($120 shipped) would a better way to spend your money. It's 30 hz -3 db. The 25 hz SUB-1200 is $145 shipped. Last week PartsExpress had this amp on sale for $49.

    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=309-042&scqty=2

    It would have been perfect. I was going to buy two of them for no particular reason but didn't get around to it. Now thy're sold out.
     
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  9. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    That is the reason I linked the HTD exterior amps. No need to cut a hole.

    The SDA-100 is $150. HTD might even have one sitting in their "open box" tab.

    Yeah those specs on the Technics subwoofer aren't that impressive, but...

    I have a feeling this speaker set is from a 1995-era rack system. I have not found any info on those surrounds. IF indeed these are from a rack system, the rack system probably had 100wpc L/R and 15wpc center/surround. Back then, surround was a mono channel.

    If it is from a rack system, the speaker specs might be "in conjunction" with what the subwoofer amp section of the receiver/integrated was capable of providing. (at that time Kenwood, Pioneer and Technics rack systems were integrated amps with separate tuners)

    Edit:
    This "box" for this subwoofer could be used with another driver. Sure you need to come up with a close approximation for internal volume, but...a different driver would cost $50-$300. You already have the box. That is 90% of building your own subwoofer.
     
  10. rkg65

    rkg65 Member

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    Thanks Sam and Gene. Besides the technical stuff, when Sam says in simple words, "they sound like every other speaker of that vintage", I get a feel that these may not the best speakers to cling on to after over 15 years. Can I expect 'distinguishably better' sound quality than these from present day speakers using the Denon AVR2311?
    If yes, what speakers & sub-woofer(s) would you recommend? I want to install them in a living room space of about 16' x 13' x 10' (L x W x H), although the actual size of the room is 29' x 13' x 10' (The remaining 13' length of the room would be open behind the rear speakers and housing a Dining Table & Chairs). I would prefer on-wall/ bookshelf speakers; but am also open to floor standing models. Budget would be anything under $ 3000 (for the complete set of 5.1 or 7.1 speakers & sub-woofer). I would be keeping these speakers for a long time (I have held on to my Technics for 15 years!), maybe change my Receiver after about 5 years or so (if required).
     
  11. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    If you want to give up on them Technics...

    Are you anywhere near Chicago?

    And my "of that vintage" comment was not to mean they sound bad. Here are the speakers I have in my house...now...(in use, as I deal in used equipment as part of my livelihood. If I included "stuff for sale", I'd have to include another 60-80. Recently bought out the "home electronics" from a chain of pawn shops that went into bankruptcy)

    BIC V series from late 80s early 90s
    DCM TF from around the 70s and 80s
    Infinity Crescendo...early 90s
    Polk S...early 80s
    Heathkit...early 40s
    RCA/Optimus/Radio Shack linaeum...70s-80s
    BIC Wharfedale...60s
    The Advent Large...60s-70s
    Dahlquist DQ10 70s
     
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  12. gene c

    gene c Well-Known Member

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    With a $3000 budget you realy need to go out and listen to a few different models to familiar yourself with whats available. For
     
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  13. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    You forgot Totem Gene... :rolleyes:

    Totem, Zu, Ohm Walsh and Salk are my "go to" when I need to match a wife's intent on "color coordination".

    I actually had a wife agree to a "purposely mismatched set". Quirky couple. She drove a Jetta with every body panel a different color(on purpose).

    I actually talked Totem into building a 9 speaker set in 9 different colors. No, you don't want to ask how much(Totem actually bought VW paint...to match the colors she chose)
     
  14. gene c

    gene c Well-Known Member

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    Totem, Thiel, Monitor Audio, Vandersteen, Boston, Atlantic Technology...I didn't mention Swan either because AudioInsider.com's inventory is weak at the moment.

    I've never heard Totem's before. So many brands, so little money...There are none for sale on CL in S.F. or Sacto.
     
  15. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    Gene...

    The only time I ever run into Totem used...is at estate sales.(around here...it is almost unfair what I run into CE wise. I bought a complete set of M&K, real M&K, from the 90s for $200. Took about 3 weeks, cause I wouldn't break it up, but sold for $2100)

    When I have them, they sell within days. I think the longest I've ever had a pair was a week.
     
  16. rkg65

    rkg65 Member

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    I have just started the process of auditioning and so far I have checked out one store with a few on-walls & bookshelves from Atlantic Technologies, Monitor Audio, MK and Sunfire. Though I am not an audiophile, I could appreciate the difference in the centre, surrounds and Sub compared to my old Technics. However I am just not impressed with the front speakers that I have seen & heard so far vis-à-vis my Technics SB-A37, especially in the 'Music' department. (Maybe I am being unreasonable in trying to look for on-walls/ book-shelves as a replacement for my old floor-standings).

    The guy at the store suggested that I either retain the Technics as my front L & R and buy matching speakers for the rest of the set-up or buy an entirely new set-up connecting the new fronts to Front A and the old Technics to Front B on the Denon 2311. Any comments on this?

    I have already started looking up the net in an effort to get educated on frequency range, cross-over frequency, impedence and such stuff. However I still need some advice on choosing a new 'full set' or 'remaining' speakers.

    If I were to look for 'matching' centre, surround and sub, what specs should I look for? The specs of the Technics SB-A37 fronts are as follows:-

    Type : 3 way 4 speaker bass-reflex
    Woofer : 30 cm (11-13/16") cone type
    Woofer : 25 cm (9-15/16") cone type
    Mid-range: 10 cm (4") cone type
    Tweeter : 6.5 cm (2-9/16") cone type
    Impedance : 8Ω
    Input power : 260 W (MUSIC), 130 W (DIN)
    Output sound pressure level : 89 dB/W (1.0 m)
    Crossover frequency : 3 kHz, 6 kHz
    Frequency Response : 35 Hz-35 kHz (-16 dB), 43 Hz-31 kHz (-10 dB)
    Dimensions (WX H X D) : 380X980X285 mm
    Weight : 13.5 kg (29.7 lb.)

    What would the above frequency range correspond to in terms of -3dB that most speakers mention these days? Also how does the 'Output pressure level' correspond to the present day 'Sensitivity'?

    I believe that matching the centre speaker to the main is very important so what specs should I look for? (Probably this is the reason why store guy suggested that I buy and entirely new set for HT and use the existing floor standings as 'Front B' for Music?)

    And one more thing...The Atlantic Technology AT-2 Bookshelves have much better specs (6Ω, 88dB, 41 Hz - 20 kHz ± 2 dB, so-called 'H-PAS' technology for added bass), but IMO still falls short of my old Technics in the sheer 'feel', 'presence' & 'depth' of sound (no, these are not audiophile terms, I mean what I seriously experienced). Is it because of the sheer size or are there some other important specs that I am missing out on?
     
  17. Robert_J

    Robert_J Well-Known Member

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    First, none of the features you listed determine how a speaker sounds. To get a matching center channel, you need one that has the same drivers or drivers from the same line of speakers. The individual drivers, enclosure and crossover design determine how a speaker will sound. Basically, you need to find another Technics SB-A37 if you want to do it correctly.
    In the bass region, larger speakers move more air. For the 'presence' & 'depth', it could be in the crossover design. There are formulas all over the web for creating a 2-way or 3-way generic crossover. Most designer take it to the 2nd level and use a crossover that is designed for those drivers/enclosure combination. The great designers can then tweak the crossover by ear than only they can do.
     
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  18. rkg65

    rkg65 Member

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    So it has to be a completely new set of speakers including the fronts (I'll retain the Technics as Front B).

    Any idea as to what a frequency response of [35 Hz-35 kHz (-16 dB), 43 Hz-31 kHz (-10 dB)] would translate to at the standard -3dB?
     
  19. schan1269

    schan1269 HTF Expert
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    You are totally missing the point. In bass management. Every speaker "not the .1" goes no lower than 40.Sent from my LG-P769 using HTF mobile app
     
  20. gene c

    gene c Well-Known Member

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    We could only guess. But if we knew, it probably wouldn't be very flattering. 43 @ -10 db doesn't look that good for a big ol' floorstander. The fact that they didn't publish a -3 spec tells you something. You're probably better off not knowing :) . But as others have said, you don't listen to specs. If you like them, then keep them. Sometimes it's hard to put old friends out to pasture. I used a pair of 12" 3-way Fishers for over 10 years. Thought they were fine, until I finally bought something better. Concentrate on the new speakers and then see if the Technics still measure up. Maybe they will. maybe they won't.
     

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