HD-DVD forum rejects Toshiba/NEC Blue Laser format (1 Viewer)

[Wayne Bundrick]

Wayne no one is saying that a caddy is easier to do but having one protects the surface of the disc much better than a thin layer of plastic. Personally I would find it horrible if Blu-ray ends up without a caddy because people complain that's it's to hard to use, even though most people have never even touched a Blu-ray caddy. Most people remember the ridiculous nature of early CD's in which you had to remove and replace the disc from the caddy. With Blu-ray you would never have to do that since you insert the caddy into the drive. The only reason you would remove the Blu-ray disc from the caddy is in case of damage to the caddy or if you were to put the disc into a mega-changer.

Whoosh, my point flew right over your head. You're saying the caddy is good because the disc needs protection. I'm saying that disc shouldn't be so fragile that it needs that kind of protection. I'm saying that any new format needs to be more durable. I'm saying that if it needs kidglove handling then they should take that weak stuff back to the drawing board and don't come back until they have something that's built for the real world and not for a cleanroom. Not just Blu-Ray, but any future format that wants to offer more capacity and/or performance in a less durable form factor.

There is still no guarantee that HDTV will succeed. There are numerous industrial and political forces at work, some for and some against HDTV, and like the format that would be HD-DVD there is some serious greed coming from all directions. If HDTV is to be successful then it won't be without someone's house of cards collapsing first. And let's see how long Hollywood allows HDTV to continue to exist after HDTV ends up on the Internet despite all their efforts to stop it. Hey, I want HDTV to succeed as much as anyone else does, but HDTV is not what I see coming down the turnpike.

 

[Chris Will]

I found this at Digitalbits.com. It is a quote form an editorial in Video Business around 5/8/03.

There's also talk that these companies will choose an HD-DVD option that is NOT backward compatible with current DVD. The feeling apparently is that if HD-DVD players can play existing disks, there isn't the incentive for consumers to upgrade their movie libraries to the new format the way they have with DVD.

This is why some of us are scared that HD-DVD will not be backward compatible. I will not support a format that I can't play my old DVDs on. PS2 can play PS1 games so they better make BluRay compatible with DVD. Before some one comes back with a smart comment, I know that DVD is not backward compatible with VHS. The leap from VHS to DVD was huge. The average person is not going to see the same difference between HD-DVD and DVD. The average person will also not understand why there old DVD disk won't play on the new machine even though both formats disks are the same size. J6P will not buy into a format that is not backward compatible and that will keep the format from succeeding. Maybe some of us are getting scared for no reason, but we will not know until the thing is released. Surely the manufactures are not that stupid to create a non-backward compatible format, hopefully.

 

[Jim Stegbauer]

Maybe I am just dense but the whole argument that HD-DVD has to have backward compatibility with DVD just does not make any sense to me. Most of us already have a DVD player, so we will just be adding another piece of equipment to our systems.

As a Laserdisc owner I could have said that DVD must be backward compatible with Laserdisc, and that DVD must keep the 12" size of the disc to insure backward compatibility, well we all know that did not happen.

I upgraded from VHS, to SVHS, to Laserdisc, to DVD, and hopefully shortly to HD-DVD, backward compatibility, bah humbug, maybe some of you have forgotten: "The Media is the Message."

 

[TheLongshot]

One point that hasn't been made in this thread is the assumption that consumers will embrace a HD format. To be honest, I look at Blu-Ray as the next SACD or DVD-A. A niche format that most people won't see the point in. To be honest, most people run DVD on displays that don't display DVDs to the fullest potential as it is. What do these people care about more resolution that they won't see?

Course, if you just want a niche format, like LD used to be, then I guess that's fine. It is just the anouncement that "DVD is dead" is a bit premature. Like CDs, I suspect tthat DVD will be with us for a while yet.

I also don't like the idea of caddies. They add to the cost and take up more space. As for DVD damage, I haven't had a problem with any of my DVDs. It is all about proper care.

And also, I don't particularly like the idea that it might leave my HTPC out in the cold. I like what my flexable machine can do, and it is kinda sad that the companies want to leave it out in the cold. I'm not going to start on my "Fair Use" rights.

I also don't see myself upgrading a huge amount of my collection. While certainly there will be improvement in picture in sound, I don't see it being a great degree over what I already have. I could be wrong, but I don't see me upgrading "Airplane", for example...

Jason

 

[Scott L]

I'm also interested in how the public will handle HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray, or whatever you wanna call it. I know Toshiba was pushing DVD pretty hard, all I remember back in late 97 were their commercials for the format.

I don't wanna be on David's sh*tlist :wink: but I also don't think this new format wil explode in people's homes. I believe adopting this format will take much longer than standard DVD. For one thing (pointed out earlier) is that 98% of the population currently has no reason to buy the player because they don't have the proper display to take advantage. Go ahead and try to explain the increased color fidelity to people.. about 98% probably won't know or care what you're talking about.

Despite this I AM looking forward to the new format, I just don't want to get too pumped up only to be scoffing at the few overpriced titles I'm interested in for the first year it's out.

 

[Richard Paul]

First off HDTV would take up to 6 times longer to transfer over the internet so I would think Hollywood would like that part of it. I know Hollywood will freak over HDTV movies on the internet but if they provide them for a fair price and vigorously go after pirates things will change little in the future with the possible end of commercials . Hollywood said the VCR would be the death of television the same way they say the PVR will bring the death of television. As far as I know though Hollywood has said little wrong about HDTV besides it needing HDMI/DVI-HDCP and a broadcast flag. If Hollywood can make money on HDTV I see little reason why they would stop it. Recently HDTV has become even more available, for a price, on DirecTV which makes me wonder why you think HDTV is not the future?

 

[David Coleman]

I think that one of the reasons why DVD has succeeded the way it has is because it's backward compatible with CD! It negates the cost of purchasing a separate piece of equipment!

I think any future Blu-Ray product would be foolish to not make their players compatible with DVD and CD! The fact is in Home Electronics the convergence of technology helps drive the business. What would it be like if we had to purchase separate DD/Pro-Logic/DTS decoders? The same should apply for the video formats.

The disc sizes will remain the same and their all read by a laser! Why not retool the laser so it's adaptable to all formats and the inevitable chip will be manufactured that plays all formats will come about.

I salivate when i think of a HD player that can play all formats: HD, DVD, CD, DVDA, SACD,JPEG, MP3,WMA,MP4! Now that player would be awesome!

 

[David Coleman]

By the way do we know what the audio proposals are for this (dd/dts/sdds/pcm/dsd) and do we know what the video proposals are (mpeg2, mpeg4, wm9, etc) for the read only proposal? Rumors as to what it may be?

 

[Richard Paul]

David the main problem with Blu-ray having backward compatibility with DVD is that it would cost a percentage of the player in royalties. This would be far more expensive than having CD compatibility. I'm saying that there will be Blu-ray players that are backward compatible with DVD but I wouldn't want it to be mandatory for the Blu-ray format.

Every additional video format adds to the cost of the player. To have WM9 for HDTV playback in addition to MPEG-2 ,which will be standard on all Blu-ray players, would add at least $200 to the player. Because of this I would be real surprised if Blu-ray does any video format besides MPEG-2. As for audio on pre-recorded Blu-ray both DD and DTS are practically guaranteed though any info on pre-recorded Blu-ray is still just a rumor.

 

[Cees Alons]

To make a new format succeed, people need to be able to use their previous "library". Even if for some political reason certain manufacturers would rather not make the new player DVD-compatible, another party will - be it from Hong-Kong or wherever.

To me the solution to the backwards compatibility seems rather straightforward. A double laser-head isn't that difficult, and the solution to the cartridge (let's call it that) is: the caddy!

You will own a single caddy (compatible with the cartridge ) that will accept DVDs and CDs.

Cees

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Since Blu-Ray (or whatever HD-DVD ends up using) will presumablky use some iteration of the MPEG standard, it should be fairly simple to make it play MPEG-2 and MPEG 1, which is the main thing you'd need for backward-compatibility with VCD and DVD.

 

[Scott L]

Good point Dan, just because DVD uses mpeg-2 does that mean Blu-Ray players have to pay the DVD Forum to allow mpeg-2 decoding? Probably not in this regard, but I'm sure there's a loophole which will require royalties to be paid.

But then again all of the members backing blu-ray are on the DVD-Forum. Wacky ain't it?

 

[Richard Paul]

It's not really the MPEG-2 decoder as the various pieces of hardware made specifically for DVD which are covered by numerous patents. Since VCD has a flat fee of $2.50 per player you could add both VCD and CD playback for a pretty low price. After checking in "DVD Demystified" the royalties for DVD add 7.5% of the player's cost plus $8. It would cost about $45 extra for a $500 Blu-ray player or $25 extra for a $200 Blu-ray player. When the Blu-ray recorders cost $2,000 that would add about $160 which does show why they would not make DVD compatibility mandatory on Blu-ray.

 

[ErichH]

Cummon' Blue !!!
If Time Warner gets into the act - we get screwed!
Can you say AOL?

E

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

If you still believe that protecting an optical disc is "weak stuff" you best not use those pansy hard drives and memory cards either.

That's a bad analogy. You could have used it if PCs had naked hard disk platters for the past 20 years and now Seagate wants to put them in sealed enclosures. But PCs have never had hard drives that didn't have sealed enclosures. In 20 years their capacity has increased about 50,000 times, their transfer rate has increased about 1000 times, and they have become physically smaller. But have they become more sensitive, do they require more physical protection than before? No, and in fact they are even more durable now than 20 years ago.

I don't think it's too much to expect the next generation of optical disc to include some technological advances to make it at least as robust as previous generations, and not have just the technological advance of a blue laser that allows them to cram more data on the disc. A protective caddy is not a technological advance, it's a crutch to avoid making it. DVD has more sophisticated error correction intended to make it more robust than CD but I think they didn't go far enough to keep the status quo, for one thing they didn't do anything about the plastic which might even be less scratch resistant than CD. But Sony put Blu-Ray in a caddy and that speaks volumes about how much improvement they've made in that department, there might even be something about the fundamental design that goes in the opposite direction. So yeah I do think they need to take that weak stuff back to the drawing board.

-----

Regarding backward compatibility, I believe the lion's share of the royalties on a DVD player are for the MPEG2 licensing, so if HD-DVD is going to use MPEG2 then the manufacturer might as well pay the rest of the fees for DVD compatibility anyway. The only way a manufacturer would not do it is if they have more spite for the other companies that hold the DVD-related patents than willingness to satisfy consumers.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Richard, presumably they have a different fee structure for things that aren't dedicated players. I doubt they gets 7.5% of the cost of DVD-ROM computers, for instance.

 

[Nick Laslett]

I'd just like to add another theme into the mix.

No-one has mentioned it yet, from what I can see.

The Playstation 3 will use Blu-Ray.

Predicted launch some time in 2006.

As you probably know, the PS2 is the worlds best selling DVD player by a very, very, very long margin. Ken Kutargi, the "father" of the playstation is also responsible for Blu-Ray. There is no doubt in my mind of the PS3 will use this format in some form.

I can't see how the format can fail with this kind of synergy.

 

[Kristoffer]

Cool!!

 

[DaViD Boulet]

No single company "owns" DVD. The official specification was developed by a consortium of ten companies: Hitachi, JVC, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Thomson, Time Warner, and Toshiba. Representatives from many other companies also contributed in various working groups. In May 1997, the DVD Consortium was replaced by the DVD Forum, which is open to all companies, and as of February 2000 had over 220 members. Time Warner originally trademarked the DVD logo, and has since assigned it to the DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation (DVD FLLC). The written term "DVD" is too common to be trademarked or owned. See section 6.2 and visit Robert's DVD Info page for links to Web sites of companies working with DVD."

Bad choice of words on my part (saying that WB "owned" DVD).
What you shared is true, however Warner/Toshiba (among other compaines) do get handsome royalties from all things "DVD". It's one reason why they pushed for DVD-audio while Sony pushed for their own in-house SACD format. Sony just doesn't want to share royalties.

SACD and DVD-A is a mess bcs they were 2 simultaneous formats. If Sony can get out the door and establish their system before the DVD forum gets something viable for market...it will be very much in Sony's favor.

Wayne, I think when people say that BluRay is the "best" they mean it can offer the video/auido phile the highest level of image/sound quality bcs it has the most storage capacity and max-data-transfer rate. Toshiba/NEC disc is 2nd best in this regard.

Keep in mind the the caddy is only *necessary* right now for recordable BluRay. The pre-recorded titles that Chris got to personally screen are caddy-free (though I still personally prefer to see a caddy).

for those worried about backwards compatibility PLEASE relax. There's nothing about "DVD" that requires it to be back-wards compatible with CD playback either. Guess what...the manufactures provided that bcs it's what the consumers wanted and they wanted competitive products.

If 10 BluRay players are on the store shelf and 9 are BluRay only and one plays BluRay, DVD, CD, and MP3 which one will you buy? Rest assured that there *will* be "universal" Blu-Ray players manufactured...even if not by every manufacturer.

 

[Philip Verdieck]

Whoosh, my point flew right over your head. You're saying the caddy is good because the disc needs protection. I'm saying that disc shouldn't be so fragile that it needs that kind of protection. I'm saying that any new format needs to be more durable. I'm saying that if it needs kidglove handling then they should take that weak stuff back to the drawing board and don't come back until they have something that's built for the real world and not for a cleanroom. Not just Blu-Ray, but any future format that wants to offer more capacity and/or performance in a less durable form factor.

Well, using that logic you wouldnt have vinyl LPs, CDs, Laserdiscs or DVDs on the market. If you can drop 'em and damage the media then they are fragile and all of them are.