HD-DVD forum rejects Toshiba/NEC Blue Laser format (1 Viewer)

[DaViD Boulet]

Chances are that *cartridge* will be removeable...and changers will be designed to play cartridge-free BluRay discs

 

[Malcolm R]

I'd imagine it costs more than a paper insert and the studios are dropping those from current DVD's to save a few cents.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

that caddy doesn't look removeable to me. It's part of the disc

 

[Brian Kidd]

My only problem with the caddy is that it adds a mechanical component to the discs. What happens when parts break off? Will it render the discs unusable? DVD are actually quite durable when treated with a modicum of care. I'm just not sold on the caddies yet. We shall see.

 

[GlennH]

This page from a UK site shows the first unit released in Japan and has a different picture of the Blu-ray media. (Click for a bigger view).

[url=http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/bf23g/bf23g.gif] [/url]

 

[Craig W]

The only thing that concerns me is backwards compatibility with DVDs. I will not upgrade every title in my collection so I want an easy way of watching DVD titles without swapping caddies.

 

[Jeff Jacobson]

The only thing that concerns me is backwards compatibility with DVDs. I will not upgrade every title in my collection so I want an easy way of watching DVD titles without swapping caddies.

As long as you keep your DVD player, you can still play DVDs.

 

[Alex Spindler]

I'm against the caddy/cartridge for seveal reasons.

I have, and continue to, use binders to transport DVDs on travel. It is very convenient to go home with 100 DVDs and CDs and not need to pay extra for baggage.

Size/density aside, it opens yet another hurdle toward PC compatibility. I can't express how nice it is to have one drive that can be a CD-player, a CD-Burner, a DVD-player, and a DVD-burner all at once with the exact same ease of use as a traditional CD-ROM. That all goes out the window with a caddy. Then you're either forced to have your BluRay drive in addition to your traditional burning/playing devices, or you manhandle discs into a makeshift caddy.

From that sense, I'm sad to see their relative indifference towards Toshiba's solution (is that high percentage of abstention typical of their voting?).

 

[Aaron_Brez]

David,

Your scenario sounds good; hope it comes out that way. I think the risk of Toshiba/NEC throwing a tantrum is high if/when Blu-Ray comes up for a vote at the Forum, but I don't know that it would matter if the majority of the Forum signs on to Blu-Ray anyway.

As for other studios than Columbia releasing content... I am skeptical, for the near future. They have nothing to gain, from what I can see, in releasing to a maverick format until it's bought off officially by the Forum.

I foresee much wrangling, and a year-long (at least) discussion on which aspects of Blu-Ray will be kept for the new HD-DVD spec, and which will instead be compromised away with features from Toshiba/NEC and perhaps even WB's braindead red laser thing. Then a new spec, probably incompatible with Blu-Ray, will show up as the official HD-DVD format, and we'll wait a couple more years for Hollywood to "feel comfortable enough" with the content protection to release content to it.

In other words, the same thing that happened on DVD.

For what it's worth, I hope you are right and I am wrong.

 

[Aaron_Brez]

Alex,

I fear that Blu-Ray may not make it to the PC.

I'm betting that even the *possibility* terrifies the studios, as they learned that RPC and CSS were easily defeatable by the hacker community.

 

[Jack Briggs]

Given how the non-home theater crowd handles/abuses DVDs, the Blu-Ray's caddy solution seems right on.

Just curious, though: If the Blu-Ray format is adopted, will it eventually be called "HD-DVD"? To avoid consumer confusion, it seems necessary.

Also, there is the backward-compatibility issue, the costs of retooling the plants, etc.

Nevertheless, of all the suggested high-def optical formats, Blu-Ray has been my favorite. Now, what might the content providers be thinking?

 

[Todd Hochard]

I'll take (and have always wanted) Blu-Ray with caddy. Thank you, drive through.

Blu-Ray has a max streaming capacity of 36Mbps (and more storage that Tosh's Blue at 27GB single layer, 50GB dual). 7.1 MLP would consume upwards of 8Mbps by itself. Lest we forget, everything, including all soundtracks, subtitles, and video is streamed off together, then sorted out by the player. So, add a couple Mbps for whatever is required, and we're down to 26Mbps, perhaps less, for video. I feel that that number is disproportionately small for the video, particularly 1080p, even at only 24fps (which, BTW, I'm hoping some filmmakers will abandon for higher frame rates once HD filmmaking becomes more prevalent).
I'd like to see them move to MPEG-4, H.264, Corona, wavelet, whatever- something later and smarter than MPEG-2- for better video compression efficiency, and I'd like DD or dts (call it DTS 4096 for a 4Mbps total rate) with a better, looser algorithm (although current dts goes out to 4096, I think).
Sure, include MLP as an option (I've softened on my stance here), but for the mainstream releases, get the generous, well-encoded lossy algorithms to step up, in order to preserve video quality.

Here's to hoping they move forward on Blu-Ray.

Todd

 

[David Forbes]

If the Blu-Ray format is adopted, will it eventually be called "HD-DVD"?

No. The whole reason a different name was chosen is to avoid paying royalties to Warners, which owns the "DVD" name. Blu-Ray has a different name specifically to avoid this.

It will probably cause confusion, but Sony's take on this is that Blu-Ray really is not DVD.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Allow me to share what a respected poster had to say from AVS:

Guys,

HD-DVD is around the corner & NOT years away & it's called Blu-Ray. I HAVE seen it with my own eyes here at Sony Canada & it's FU***NG AWESOME!. (Got an inside friend in charge of the DVD-Replication & he does many favors for me.)

They ALREADY have REPLICATED titles that will be released to the public later THIS YEAR!

So relax, enjoy the last few months of DVD because it is HISTORY in my books.

SUPERBIT you say? Who cares? All Superbit is, is a higher Variable bit-rate NO MORE than 10mbps. Other studios already offer the so called "Superbit" technology too but just can't call it Superbit. Check out the encoding on many discs, you WILL see 8-10mbps in hundreds of titles.

The Blue-Rays have enough room for 30mbps & THAT is what will separate us from DVD's. Let the other Studios fight over what format they will ultimately go for, by that time we shall have hundreds of titles out in the blue-ray format & THOUSANDS of players sold. It will be TOO LATE to change batters!

I also have an invite to see their SXRD model that is coming in. I will post my thoughts once I get to see it. I just don't like the price of this beast knowing that TI is releasing 3-chippers in the same panel resolution as Sony's SXRD with 4000:1 CR. Sony will have to re-adjust pricing because the 3-chippers WILL be relatively cheaper.

Enjoy.

BTW, 24/96 DTS would be *such* an improvement over 448 Dolby Digital that even without MLP on BluRay I think I would survive

 

[RobertR]

You've given me lots of incentive to hunt for Blu-Ray demos at the 2004 CES, David.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Looking at things with Blu-Ray in mind, I think that the whole "superbit" concept was a marketing ploy by Sony to test the water to see if improved picture/sound was enough of an incentive to warrant consumers who already owned particular DVD titles to upgrade.

It turned out that we were willing. Many of us purchased Standard-Definition 720 x 480 DVDs all over again of the same title because of an incremental improvement in picture and/or sound.

That told the marketing folks at Sony what they needed to know...that there is a constituent base of HT enthusiasts ready to upgrade their library to blu-Ray HD titles to support a new format launch.

Super-Bit DVD was the litmus test for market demand for something else and we're about to see the real deal: Blu-Ray.

 

[Brian-W]

David, while I certainly share in your excitement, I'd take that post on AVS with a grain of salt. That doesn't mean somethings coming to the U.S. this fall nor guarantee pre-recorded titles at launch.

The AVS poster could have easily seen the Japanese model unit (which is available), and Ben Feingold (CTHV) has already said they plan to do some pre-recorded Blu-Ray titles for release. But no time frame has been given, so I wouldn't jump the gun yet. And you can probably bet Japan will get the first releases.

While that post is titillating, it certainly isn't a press release or guarantee.

 

[Aaron_Brez]

David,

Sorry, I don't buy that (I buy that someone said it, but not that it bears any resemblance to reality).

Sony can go this alone, but unless they get the studios on board "hundreds of titles" is meaningless. It will be Beta all over again: technically superior format, killed by the fact that more content is available on a weaker competitor.

"You can have any movie you want, as long as it's Columbia."

DVD had to deal with this to some extent; Fox and Paramount held off for a long time, and Disney didn't really commit to releasing any of its jewels until DiVX was obviously dying. But the majority of studios (WB, Columbia, Universal, MGM) had committed to the format, and the smaller houses like Artisan and Image were likewise, and eventually Fox and Paramount had little choice but to jump in or lose (potential) revenue.

Keep in mind that this was with a format that was an agreed-upon standard! The alternative we're talking about here has Sony flouting the very Forum that it belongs to, and releasing limited titles. I just don't see it happening. Not successfully.

Sony tries this every ten years or so (Beta, MiniDisc, Blu-Ray), but as far as I can tell has a spotty record of success.

(That said, a counter-example could be the Sony-Phillips axis of CDs; obviously CD has been a dramatic success. But in the case of CDs, was there an industry-wide body which was to decide the form of future digital audio, with Sony ignoring them and doing its own thing? I don't think so.)

I'm a Sony fan, and I'd love to buy a Blu-Ray machine next year. But unless they can get the HD-DVD Forum to buy into Blu-Ray, I don't think they're going to win a format war, here-- pre-emptive strike or not.

 

[Brian-W]

The alternative we're talking about here has Sony flouting the very Forum that it belongs to, and releasing limited titles. I just don't see it happening. Not successfully.

Blu-Ray is NOT just Sony. Blu-Ray is a consortium just like the DVD-Forum. Sony is merely the first manufacturer to release product. Let's not forget Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Samsung, Phillips, and others are all founding Blu-Ray members.

Let's not turn this into a 'bash Sony' thread and digging up old Beta comparisons.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

DVD had to deal with this to some extent; Fox and Paramount held off for a long time, and Disney didn't really commit to releasing any of its jewels until DiVX was obviously dying. But the majority of studios (WB, Columbia, Universal, MGM) had committed to the format, and the smaller houses like Artisan and Image were likewise, and eventually Fox and Paramount had little choice but to jump in or lose (potential) revenue.

Let's compare Blu-Ray launch to DVD launch.

But first let's remind us of some things regarding our current SD-DVD during its days of intruduction:

1. DVD forum:

The only reason there was a "DVD forum" was because Sony/Philips and Toshiba/Warner were about to launch 2 incompatible DVD-video formats (Sony called theirs MMCD and Toshiba called theirs SD). The other Studios cried the blues and said the wouldn't get involved with a beta/VHS war on the horizon. Then the computer industry stepped in to level the playing field and said they would not support *either* format unless Toshiba/Sony agreed on a single unified format.

Well, Both Toshiba and Sony were counting on the computer indutry to bring costs down for DVD-rom manufacturing so they could make affordable DVD players so they united formats under the DVD-forum and named it "DVD" which...BTW...does NOT stand for "Digital video disc"...it stands for "Digital Versatle Disc".

The point is that that had there been no impending 'beta/vhs' war there would have been no DVD-forum and things would have proceeded along the same path we see today with whatever format had been put to market.

2. Studio Support:

DVD didn't just "have to deal with this to some extent". DVD went through the same thing. The ONLY major studios who supported the new DVD format in any real way upon launch were Sony (Columbia Tristar) and Warner. Yep. That's it. A few P/S Babe and Shadow titles from Universal in Jewel cases don't count...that was experiementing...*not* format support. Virtually every DVD you could buy was a title by one of these 2 companies except for a handful of smaller studios who didn't have anything to loose (and their catalog offerings weren't StarWars-level sales). Then, one by one, the other major studios *started* to show *limited* support by releasing a handful of pitifully mastered DVD titles to pay lip-service to the format and to keep Sony/Warner from doing anything rash (to 'test' the dvd water and keep Sony/Warner from pulling the plug on the format).

After 6 months in "test" cities STILL there wasn't enough serious support from other major studios. Warner and Sony called their bluff and threatened to abandon the format altoghether. Eventually Disney 'signed on' to DVD and announced titles only to turn around and announce support for Circuit City's DIVX format the next day! *hardly* the kind of "support" for open-DVD that we were hoping for but it was enough to keep DVD going politically.

Gradually, studios began to offer more and more support...some begain to jump in with both feet (Artisan...then called "Live Entertainment"), others stayed on the fence and still put out shoddy transfers, held back their choice titles, and gave hap-hazard support to DVDs key features like 5.1 surround or 16x9 WS encoding.

It's easy to look at the DVD shelf at BestBuy today and gloss over the studio reluctance to embrace DVD that was a very real and frightful reality during the first couple of years for those of us eager to see DVD succeed.

It took YEARS for DVD to become mainstream to the point where Disney and Fox finally embraced it like a friend. Don't you guys remember it wasn't long ago that Fox had a big turn-over and finally committed to 16x9 encoding of widescreen titles. It's only the last year or two that Disney has finally stopped recycling old laserdisc transfers/masters on DVD and it taking the time to do the format right.

Point? That SD-DVD started with only 2 studios offering any "real" support. The rest sat out and watched...or threw out a couple of titles to pay lipservice for political reasons...all arguing that consumers really didn't want DVD and that the copy protection wasn't good enough and that they'd all go broke if they supported movies on a 5" disc since the format was likely doomed to die.

Now they know better. Sure...copy protection was a wash but they STILL make more money than they ever dreamed with those little shiny discs. More so than they make on the theatrical run. At this point the whole "movie industry" is evolving...the theatrical run has become a mere teaser/commercial for the DVD purchase. Don't think so? How many of you went to watch Two Towers but were thinking the whole time "I can't *wait* until I get the extended cut on DVD...wonder what scenes it will have added back in!"?

Now set the stage for HD-DVD. Studios are no longer fearful that consumers will be frightened by the concept of movies on a disc...the wheels are greased with DVDs success. If they can be convinced that there is reasonable protection from piracy and Sony can establish a foothold with BluRay among the early adoptors (and they will), there's no reason why it even needs to be sanctioned by the forum to gain studio acceptance. As long as there's no viable alternative being put forward by another studio to compete...it will be an open playing field with BluRay winning the match.

The studios have shown with D-VHS that they are NOT afraid to release pre-recorded HD software. It's just a matter of a disc-based format. Once it exists and is in the homes of videophiles it will be a no-brainer. I doubt we'll even have test-cities like we did the first time. Blu-Ray may likely go on open-sale right off the bat.

Who will buy BluRay? Well...certainly every videophile who's purchased a D-VHS deck and also about the million other vidoephiles didn't because they said "I'll wait unitl I can buy HD titles on an optical disc format...I'll never go back to tape no matter what."

The fact that there is an HD-market capable of sustainging D-VHS in *any* capacity (which there is) indicates that there is a market waiting for Blu-Ray by a factor of 10.

How many HT enthusiasts have 16x9 HDTVs? Lots. You can bet that at least 3/4 of them would stand in line to buy a blu-ray player for $1000 just to watch the Fifth Element in 1920 x 1080.

I'll place a wager that within a year's time that scenario becomes real.