Google TV takes on Apple TV and I'm still waiting..... (1 Viewer)

[Jeffery_H]

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein

Hi Jeffrey!


Have done a lot of reading up on this over

the past day and I am aware of some of the

hacks out here, but at the same time, hearing

the networks are working hard to fill in those

loopholes.


Really, am hoping this device can be used

beyond its original intent and I look forward

to reading about how people are doing just that.


I am also looking forward to your review and

hope you share it with us.


It's just that this seems to be the first step in

technology that will probably be more refined

over the course of the year. In other words, this

device might be obsolete very soon unless it is

as expandable as you indicate.

That's the great thing about Google TV since it is open. I know what you mean about closing those holes, but for now HULU is wide open. On podcasts like TWIG (This Week in Google) and others, many think this is just the beginning of the hacks and there is no way to stop it. Heck, as they point out even if they do stop HULU in a few months there will be another hack for it to undo it. Since users have already figured out how to get apps on it and jailbreak some of it already, you can pretty much count on the hacks to really come through if this thing takes off. Look at all the hacks for the Android stuff right now and Google really doesn't care since they are the "open" platform.


I will let you know once my unit arrives how things look.

 

[mattCR]

Originally Posted by Jeffery_H




I can't believe the amount of misinformation about this product. Seriously, read some details on this and do a Google search for some REAL reviews. This is just a small computer, like the Apple TV running iOS 4. It will soon get iOS 4.2 and Google TV is no different. You are comparing cell phones to a stand alone box and nothing you state makes any sense. Some phones can't be updated due to the handset makers hardware and such. Most Android phones though can be updated just fine. Also, smartphones are meant to be upgraded to sell you a new phone and create a market for them with new features and such. That in no way compares to a device like the Google TV where it has already been stated MANY times this device will be getting lots of updates. Just look at the review IGN wrote or some of the other details out there. Even the company itself says they are planning updates next year with OFFICIAL app support for it. As I point out, this thing has already been hacked in several ways too.

First, I want to put out that "Hack" basically means: something an end user has to do for themselves. You and I may do that, but most end users will feel very uncomfortable doing this. You won't see JoeSixPack looking at going to the systemroot to upload from a USB drive.


I've had time to play with the GoogleTV devices, and I've got the SDK. There will be tons of apps, that's a guarantee. And lots of supports. STILL, "hacking" Hulu to work is something 98% of the people will NEVER do. So, you rule out a big set of people for "features". And I've read the hacked storage methods, but again, as a device many will get integrated into a TV, this is both clumsy (you'll have what, a pen drive or USB HDD hanging out?) It's a bit of a "this is not how it was designed" It significantly lowers it's design aesthetics, which means it's wife acceptance factor is far worse then even the most clumsy HTPC.

Realize, here, that I'm talking about the Sony commitment to GoogleTV in many of their sets.


With Regards to the Logitech Revue, it uses an interesting way to get around this; using HDMI Daisy Chaining, it manages a programming guide, however, It doesn't have any supports for driving any network tuner device or managing storage, so it can only handle processed information up front (HDMI) so for those who aren't willing to do an HDMI passthrough etc. it's functions are useless, and logitech has committed to no DVR supports..


A good point of it is this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_technews/20101022/tc_yblog_technews/24-hours-with-logitechs-google-tv-enabled-revue


If you have a device that relies on someone hacking it, then what have you really got?


Meanwhile you're 3 times the cost of the AppleTV, and you're within $80 of an HTPC that will support mutiple tuners DVR supports etc.


It's an interesting idea.. I could see someone trying to do something with the Revue. I played with one for all of two hours. The remote is clunky, the interface is "blah" and of course content providers are working hard to not work with it. That may change, and sure it's hackable, but I certainly won't promote anything to the customers who might buy this - people who are not technically savvy - that they have to "hack" and hope google doesn't update the hack to undo it.


Sorry it is what it is. Maybe it will mature into something great, but right now it isn't. (FYI, it's DLNA supports, which is a great bit, and does support MKV, which is a big perk)


But for Hometheater folks, one of the other issues people run into is that in order to handle it's little HDMI pass through while staying HDCP compliant, all GoogleTV devices right now have a conversion step in the middle.. so, if you're getting DD-5.1 or whatever from your initial feed through it, it decodes it first, and passes it through in PCM. For those with better receivers, this is also a "blah".


http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Revue/HDMI-audio-pass-through-to-an-AVR-for-Processing/td-p/502604



There are some things to really like about this (MKV support is one). But if that's what you're after, it's a pumped up WDLive! device. Yes, there will be more apps, that's a granted. But I'm interested to see the viability of a device so close in cost to a DVR replacement and so much more then an AppleTV, and see who adopts the middle ground.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Been looking for sites that explain how to hack

the Logitech Revue but came up with nothing.


Furthermore people are reporting that even with

the Hulu workaround they still can't use it through

Google TV.


If there are a lot of cool hacks available then the

unit might very well be worth the cost. However,

I agree that most people won't know how to do this

and for them this is very limited in its use.


In the meantime I'll keep combing the web for

information.

 

[Jeffery_H]

I have not received mine yet, but have seen it in person. According to several podcasts, Google TV is a DLNA capable device and supports browsing and streaming of DLNA servers. Therefore, very easy to get many things going. Since I reported the workaround browser flag hack for HULU, it was reported today that HULU has now blocked that workaround. However, it is now being reported there is a work around to that, one method is "PlayOn". There are other methods I am sure, but keep in mind that HULU and Google TV are working together and at some point but it will be a paid for service as the message says.


I don't know where the statement "The remote is clunky, the interface is "blah" and of course content providers are working hard to not work with it." comes from since all I have read about it and also on various podcasts indicate otherwise. Many content providers are being lined up for support, just like Apple has limited support now too. It may take some time, but this is the future and most are moving that way. Look at all the channels on Roku and now you have more. Many web sites are being changed for Google TV as reported, such as NY Times, Washington Post, WSJ, etc. Personally, I don't find the remote bad at all since you must have some way to interact with it, plus the apps that are coming. Don't forget you can always opt for the smaller "mini" remote if you want to so no big deal there.

 

[DaveF]

[COLOR= rgb(48, 48, 48)]I can't believe the amount of misinformation about this product. ... This is just a small computer, like the Apple TV running iOS 4. It will soon get iOS 4.2 and Google TV is no different.[/COLOR]

We'll know for sure next year when today's first-gen Sony TV / Blu-ray buyers try to download and install GoogleTV 2.0 on their integrated devices. The only history from Google so far shows they don't think about requiring vendors to future-proof their hardware for future release, until 2nd or 3rd gen hardware. Maybe Google applied some Android lessons to GoogleTV? Are there specs on the integrated devices to make an educated guess?

Originally Posted by Jeffery_H

I don't know where the statement "The remote is clunky, the interface is "blah" ... but this is the future and most are moving that way. ... Personally, I don't find the remote bad at all since you must have some way to interact with it,.

The future is full-size keyboards for remote controls; or at least full QWERTY keyboards, just to watch TV or a Blu-Ray? Among a certain set, sure. But as an expected norm, but for the non techno-geek set? I don't think so.

 

[Jeffery_H]

Originally Posted by DaveF

The future is full-size keyboards for remote controls; or at least full QWERTY keyboards, just to watch TV or a Blu-Ray? Among a certain set, sure. But as an expected norm, but for the non techno-geek set? I don't think so.

DaveF:


Please do not take statements out of context. What I said was "I don't know where the statement "The remote is clunky, the interface is "blah" and of course content providers are working hard to not work with it." comes from since all I have read about it and also on various podcasts indicate otherwise. Many content providers are being lined up for support, just like Apple has limited support now too. It may take some time, but this is the future and most are moving that way."


I was of course referring to content here as indicated. Also as I clearly pointed out if you read my entire post is you have the option of a "mini" remote. Now, how you feel about any of this is up to you. However, I want to know how you are going to interact with anything if you do not use one of these remotes you find so lacking? Both Google TV and Apple TV will have to use some sort of input method besides your basic remote control the general public uses now if they are going to put apps on them.

 

[ChuckWL]

Have we not we seen this play before? I bought one and got one for my parents several years ago. Oh yes... reminds me of WebTV 2.0.


When my mother calls me while reading the sale ads on a Saturday night and asks me if she "Already has this WebTV? Isnt it the one down in the box in the basement?" I think there will be some confusion in the marketplace.

 

[Jeffery_H]

Originally Posted by ChuckWL

Have we not we seen this play before? I bought one and got one for my parents several years ago. Oh yes... reminds me of WebTV 2.0.


When my mother calls me while reading the sale ads on a Saturday night and asks me if she "Already has this WebTV? Isnt it the one down in the box in the basement?" I think there will be some confusion in the marketplace.

No, not really and that is why it is wrong to compare it that way. First, you did not have an "app" marketplace back then like you do now that are supported by these devices. It is OFFICIAL that Google TV will and it is said Apple TV may do so too later but is not yet official. Second, you must look at how these will tie into your smartphones which also were not around back then. Apple will be introducing "Airplay" and Google TV will have "Fling". Both of these give MUCH greater benefit over anything the old devices ever did. Plus you have streaming and VOD too along with all that other stuff. It in no way comes close to comparing.

 

[ChuckWL]

Originally Posted by Jeffery_H





No, not really and that is why it is wrong to compare it that way. First, you did not have an "app" marketplace back then like you do now that are supported by these devices. It is OFFICIAL that Google TV will and it is said Apple TV may do so too later but is not yet official. Second, you must look at how these will tie into your smartphones which also were not around back then. Apple will be introducing "Airplay" and Google TV will have "Fling". Both of these give MUCH greater benefit over anything the old devices ever did. Plus you have streaming and VOD too along with all that other stuff. It in no way comes close to comparing.

Oh yes I agree with you jeffery it is a dynamic system but I think the public needs to try it out to see. I have seen little explained about the product other than the Google TV press conference which BTW wasnt greeted very well by the shareholders as the stock fell that day after the announcement.

 

[Sam Posten]

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein

Been looking for sites that explain how to hack

the Logitech Revue but came up with nothing.

If it's 'open' why does it need to be hacked? =p

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by Jeffery_H

you have the option of a "mini" remote. Now, how you feel about any of this is up to you. However, I want to know how you are going to interact with anything if you do not use one of these remotes you find so lacking? Both Google TV and Apple TV will have to use some sort of input method besides your basic remote control the general public uses now if they are going to put apps on them.



How will I interact with my entertainment system without a full keyboard? Just like I do now, with a typical remote control. Implicit in your question is what I was asking about: Do you think the future requires us to have full keyboards to watch TV?


There are apps and there are apps. You're not going to get Angry Birds on Apple TV or GoogleTV. The direct touch mechanic is broken; and full keyboard won't help. But with a common directional remote you can easily have info-presentation apps, like weather, stock tickers, and news headlines. The in-between world is what's uncertain: apps that require substantial text input, like Facebook or Twitter or IMDB.


That is: do people want a full web browser on their TV? And do they want that more than browser in a portable, handheld device (spend $399 on a browser locked to a single TV or $499 for a browser that goes to every room, to work, to vacation?)



I'm excited about the potential for breaking content out of cable TV bundles. I'm unimpressed by 50" web browsers and living room webcams.

 

[mattCR]

Originally Posted by Sam Posten


If it's 'open' why does it need to be hacked? =p

BINGO.


Look, I made my comments about the layout and interface because I do physically have one. I try to go through as much of this hardware as possible for other purposes. But the interface here doesn't feel very polished. It's nowhere near in the league of Microsoft's MCE or AppleTV, both of which are far more polished and offer a far better remote. (Sorry, the Revue Remote SCREAMS "please, grab a harmony")


I do agree that the apps are unique, etc. but let me point something out: for 99% of the audience of this thing, "apps" are pointless crap. They want something completely out of the box to setup and hookup and run. I love the way Google alcolytes talk it up by laying out how easy it is to "hack". Look, the moment you're "hacking" anything, and waiting for provider to undo it, you've instantly ruled out the wife acceptance factor, and eliminated anyone who just wants it to work out of the box. Then, you've tripped into the area of people who may want far more functionality then the Google will offer; and if they are that inclined, they'd spend to get MCE or Sage or whatever.


TV devices are aimed at a much different audience. I spent 2 hours yesterday explaining to a doctor - and not an idiot, a board certified neurologist - how to work his new projector for his hometheater. Now, things like a media center or an appletv, etc. would be unique for him. And DLNA is a nice plus - but remember, more and more Bluray decks are adding that.


So, GoogleTV seems to fit into that area that in order to get to the "good stuff" you have to hack it. And, unhacked, you have a mish-mash offering that doesn't particularly stand out in any area. NetFlix? I can get 5.1 Netflix on PS3. Or XBOX. Or MCE. I can get stereo only Netflix through the Revue. Hulu? Oh, yeah, you can "hack" it. Apps? Hate to break this to you, but in the App world, GoogleTV is in nowhere's land in comparison to say, PS3, XBOX.. or any bluray player (as they of course can play... Bluray).

There are lots of things I like about te Revue, but it is clearly 1.0 level hardware/software.

 

[DaveF]

Matt,

Can you provide some broader review comments? I'm curious how GTV works in an actual household. I'm especially curious about: keyboard-as-remote and Web-on-TV issues. Does a full-size keyboard on the end table violate SAF for remote control clutter? Does the family tolerate someone Facebooking while they're watching their TV show? I'm trying to understand how (what appears to be) a single-person PC paradigm fits with the multi-user TV / living room experience.

 

[mike caronia]

Mark Cuban's take on the whole thing: http://paidcontent.org/article/419-how-google-tv-could-hand-netflix-the-entire-streaming-universe/


As far as I see it, he internet providers hold the key to this whole thing.


I recently purchased the new Apple TV, and have a PS3 that I can stream from...didn't really need the Apple, but the price was right and I wnated to check out it's portability...it is tiny. Like it a lot. Would not spend $300 for a streaming box.

 

[Jeffery_H]

My Google TV arrived just today. I will be posting a full review by the end of the week. Look for a dedicated forum thread in the HTPC area. I will post a link to it here as well.

 

[mattCR]

Now, we've had an MCE in our living room for years; and so I've tried a lot of different devices. The keyboard and facebooking, etc. aren't big bads. I'm kind of used to those. And, for it's worth, you can do 99% of everything with a remote.


The only issue I have is the remote for the Revue is just not very good. Response is not snappy and it feels very "cheap" in your hands, kind of like a remote you'd get with an Emerson DVD player


Some of the biggest issues initially are going to be things like no WiFi support. (It's ethernet only, which for me is not an issue, but..) but the HDMI pass through is a major one.. at least for me. As I've noted above, you get decoded audio out, not bitstream pass through, and if it drops back you get stereo. So, those wanting consistent HD audio, this device which sits in the middle of a cablebox/satellite and your TV can do that.

The interface out of the box is plain but usable. You don't have to use the keyboard, and most functions can be accessed easily. It has several points that I prefer over the AppleTV when I test. It's DLNA compliance is pretty good, and connecting it to a Windows Home Server is a snap. Those are the pros.


But it has issues with some audio types, CODECs, as well as of course, Hulu etc. Now, I'm aware that it's hackable, but I'm not going to test any "hacks" to recommend on to anyone because I wouldn't do it for them (because I can't afford to have to run back and forth and potentially "re-hack" someone's device). Since it doesn't support content protected content (like iTunes) you don't have access to that. The performance screen to screen is relatively snappy. But since it uses IR Blaster, the response time to "tune" a channel is of coursed mixed.


Watching fast-moving TV or movies through the Review looks... wrong. This is something I've seen others kind of mention, but it's hard to really explain. I was watching "Bourne Identity" and while I'm used to fast moving action, with the Revue, you get an extra layer of either garble or artifacting.


I know some refer to this as a framerate issue:


http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Revue/Frame-rate-issues/m-p/504998


But that really isn't my experience. What I'm getting is like a "film" type quality of some jerks here and there and artifacting, which is immediately removed if I take the Revue out of the middle.


I can see where google is going with this, and I appreciate the idea.. I'm a major HTPC advocate, and I've been here doing that for quite some time.


But the Revue doesn't go far enough to offer "great features" that standout, and it isn't cheap enough to make up the difference. If this unit were $99, I'd tell you grab one and give it a go. But at $300, the lack of significant out of the box features, bugs, and quirky feel make it seem not quite worth the money.


This is the kind of thing I'd describe as an "early adopter's poison" I remember the first Windows Media Center I put together; WindowsMCE2005. With 2 TV tuners, etc. It was a very basic HD server with loads of basic issues. But, there were some likably things about it. Still, it wasn't anything I'd "Push" on anyone because of the upkeep. As time went on, Microsoft got more and more "right" adding functions that were desired, changing others.. until Win7MCE is pretty much a damn solid product (and now in every copy of Windows except starter/basic) that it just works... and yet enthusiasts can use tweaks to gain a lot of unique functions.
GoogleTV and AppleTV want to fill a different niche. They don't want to replace your cable box.. they want to sit in between it and your TV or compliment it. So, they get judged as a different kind of thing. But they have to offer a compelling reason to spend if they aren't eliminating the cable box... Apple has ITunes and Google has ... nothing at the moment. That's the hangup.


It's not a bad idea, it's like WebTV 3.0, but there isn't a big enough selling point to lay out the $300 (IMHO)

 

[Jeffery_H]

Originally Posted by Sam Posten


If it's 'open' why does it need to be hacked? =p

It doesn't, what was being pointed out is that you CAN hack it if you want to. Sure, Google TV will work just fine without ever doing anything to it except for the software updates just like Apple TV. The fact that it is "open" means that those of us with technical skills can do more with it but it does not "need" to be hacked. The same can be said for Boxee and Roku too.

 

[DaveF]

Thanks for the comments. Quite interesting.

Originally Posted by mattCR I don't know where Google is going.


My best guess is they want to get more personal data, for more advertising revenue, by getting people to filter their TV and movie watching through GTV.


But it's not clear what means they're using. Is this a super-cheap HTPC that does some of this and some of that? Is it a dedicated experience, focused on web surfing? Is it a run at supplanting the Cable Box / DVR? Do they want to provide cheap computers with web access to those holdouts who haven't yet bought one, but for whom $299 is acceptable?

 

[Sam Posten]

Originally Posted by Jeffery_H

It doesn't, what was being pointed out is that you CAN hack it if you want to. Sure, Google TV will work just fine without ever doing anything to it except for the software updates just like Apple TV. The fact that it is "open" means that those of us with technical skills can do more with it but it does not "need" to be hacked. The same can be said for Boxee and Roku too.

If you need to go to a pirate group to get software to allow you root level access to an 'open' machine to do anything 'interesting' with it then you arent getting any of the touted virtues of being open:


Witness:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/22/sony-google-tv-booted-into-recovery-mode-are-we-days-away-from/

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Matt,


This Logitech Revue sounds like a complete dud.

EDIT:
Just found this:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/25/logitech-revue-with-google-tv-torn-down-netbook-specs-found-wit/