General questions about MacBooks (1 Viewer)

[Aaron Reynolds]

The upside to going for a Pro desktop is how long you can keep it "current" -- there's no way really to upgrade the internal components of an iMac aside from RAM (and the hard drive if you're adventurous). If you're an upgrader, this may be something to think about. But the price difference is enormous, and if you're not putting, say, a bunch of RAM into the Pro right off the bat, the performance difference won't be all that exciting (depending on what you're doing with it).

I have a G3 400 tower and a G4 dual 867 tower that are both still going strong, thanks to updated video cards, additional internal hard drives and maxed-out RAM. The G3 is coming to the end of its useful life, but it has served me for eight years or so and I can't really complain about that.

 

[Thomas Newton]

Once she's officially a student at an accredited institution, she qualifies for the Student/Teacher Version of MS Office. I'm pretty sure they make that for Mac OS X now (as well as for Windows).

The Student/Teacher version runs about $150 (as opposed to maybe $400 for one of the full non-student versions of MS Office).

 

[Thomas Newton]

Brushed aluminum iMacs would be a bit of a turn-off for me. I like that look on the PowerMac and Mac Pro towers, but white + translucent plastic really nailed it for clean-looking desktops.

As for dual monitors, any of the Intel-based iMacs can use a second display in extended desktop mode, so I'd expect that the new ones could, also. An iMac can't drive a 30" Cinema Display, but can probably drive a 20" LCD.

 

[Carlo_M]

My question is, how upgradable is the Pro? I mean, I saw when they took one apart to put the 4 core CPUs in there before they were officially added, and upgrading the CPU on a Pro looks way harder than doing it on a standard PC.

Also, the video card is easily accessible, but aren't you still restricted to whatever Apple will support? I'd instantly buy a Pro over an iMac if you had the same kind of ability to swap out video cards like you do on PCs. No, I don't need to upgrade often like I used to when I gamed and built my own PCs, but video card technology changes very rapidly and it's nice to be able to upgrade just that, but I don't think even that is as easy on a Mac.

Other than that, sure the Pro allows you to upgrade RAM to a ridiculous amount, but it's FB-DIMMs which cost 2x or more what the iMacs use. And yes the internal HD bays are cool, but external firewire HDs are going down in price as well.

I would totally want to buy a Pro over an iMac if it were truly upgradable, but in classic Mac/Apple fashion, I'm questioning whether it truly is more upgradable outside of just more RAM and HD space (both of which I don't really need since the new iMacs will likely accommodate 4GB of RAM and I already have two 160GB Firewire external HDs).

Any thoughts on the ease/difficulty of upgrading CPU and RAM on the Pro? Are there any other upgradable components on the Pro that I'm not aware of?

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Carlo,

I am no expert on this though I own a Mac Pro.

I remember when studying these computers prior to purchase
one of the big "pluses" was the ease of upgrading. These units
supposedly have a huge bay in the back where it's rather easy
to access memory and such.

Read this report that gives more insight into the process, though the
article hints that there are complications.

From the standpoint that I'm the type of person that will never look
to upgrade this computer (I already have 4GB ram installed), I am
VERY happy with my Mac Pro. It is the fastest, most powerful
computer I have ever used. Well worth the cost.

 

[Carlo_M]

Thanks Ron! I made an error in my last sentence, I meant to ask if people knew about how easy and how many options one could have in upgrading the Mac Pro CPU and video card, not RAM. RAM and HD are very easy to upgrade on the Pro so that's all I need to know there.

But that link you sent does show the difficulty of a CPU swap (more so than a standard PC), which isn't the end of the world. By the time I'm ready for a new CPU I'm generally ready for a new computer (about every 3-4 years).

It's the video card upgradability that will sell a Pro to me. Since drivers are strictly controlled by Apple, I assume it's not as easy as in Windows where you can basically plop in any PCIe graphics card and install the driver and off you go! Often, upgrading your vid card about a year or so into ownership gives you almost a new lease on life, in PC speak. The graphics driver does so much, and advances so quickly, that upgrading just that makes my PC act like a new machine!

I'd like to know if anyone has experience successfully upgrading the video card, how many options does Apple/OSX give you, etc.

Thanks~!

 

[Ronald Epstein]

I'm the least experienced person in the world to tell you this
so take with a grain of salt, but when I got my Mac Pro I was
disappointed that I couldn't put the video card from my PC into
it as it had better specs.

You need a video card that is Mac specific.

...but you probably knew that already.

 

[Thomas Newton]

Are video card drivers "strictly controlled by Apple"? Or is it a matter of the video card vendors not wanting to invest the engineering resources to write Mac OS X drivers for more than one or two of their offerings?

 

[Carlo_M]

Not sure Thomas, but either way the end result is the same, as far as I know: it's very very difficult to upgrade your video card on Macs. That's why I threw the question out there, to see if people were aware of an easier way to upgrade it.

I'm not a power user, and the 4GB of RAM for a new iMac (assuming a new build does come out in a few days/weeks), will be more than enough for me. Yes the video card options on the Pro are better than the iMac, but I'm not sure that will justify the greatly added expense. With the amount of external firewire HDs I own [which I need, to share between multiple computers], internal HD upgrading is not an issue. So without the need for more than 4GB of RAM (by the time I need more, I'll need a new computer regardless of whether I purchase an iMac or Pro), with CPU upgrading out of the picture, and no need for that many internal HD bays, the only (and most compelling) reason for me to buy a Pro would be video card upgradability. Unfortunately it's looking less likely that this can be done. :frowning:

 

[DaveF]

Talking with friends, I see more general interest out there for Mac products, but the killer is the high price. Just to help tightwad, would-be switchers, I wish there was a low-end MacBook for $999 with AppleCare. Something like a 1.5 GB, bottom-end Core 2 Duo processor and a 60 GB hard-drive, with AppleCare for $999 (+tax, shipping, etc.)

Similarly, the refurbs seem quite expensive. The low-budget person sees a stark choice of $450 for a refurb Dell InspiroTude or $900 for refurb MacBook, which still needs a $250 AppleCare plan!

I see this with co-workers. I think there could be a real market for a sub-$1000 portable. Apple obviously wants to maintain its image and product quality. I've had my new MBP for almost two months now, and I recommend it to friends, but it's quite expensive to make the change.

 

[Michael_K_Sr]

Yeah...I've grown pretty tired of the Macs are a ripoff argument. I get to hear it from a few people in the office. All I can say is look at the ancillary costs associated with maintaining a Windows machine and if you still don't get it...too bad. I'm sure there are plenty of people that feel they should be able to drive a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean Ferrari should sell a stripped down piece of crap to give everyone a chance to ride in one.

 

[DaveF]

I'm not saying they're a rip-off: obviously not since I just spent nearly $2500 on a MacBook Pro (my most expensive computer so far).

I'm saying they are expensive, period. The entry-level machines for the mid-range models are more expensive than roughly equivalent PCs, and further exacerbated by the need to buy new Mac software. The hidden cost in a PC is often time; but people are often willing to spend time before cash because often people just don't have cash.

Such a thing would have helped the OP for this thread. His budget for his daughter's computer was impossible with a MacBook unless he skipped the AppleCare or didn't buy any software. I'm guessing he didn't meet his budget goals. A lower cost option would have helped him out.

 

[Mike Heenan]

One thing that's good about buying a Mac is that they're the same price pretty much everywhere you look whether it's in the Apple store or an online retailer. So if you know you want a mac you pick one place to buy it and that's that, no hours spent googling for cheaper prices, etc.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

On the one hand, I agree that Macs are horribly overpriced (as with
anything you buy Apple).

On the other hand, I do believe that you are getting a product that
is built better and more reliable than most PCs out there. You do
get your money's worth.

This is the reason why I bought the iPhone blindly. I have
talked about this extensively in other threads, but basically after I
bought my first Mac desktop in January, I followed with a Macbook
Pro a few months later. Soon after, an iPod. A month ago, an iPhone.

I don't even have to read any pre-reviews on Apple product. Apple
has already convinced me that the products they offer are designed
far better than the competition, and is more reliable. This is one
company that strives to do things right the first time.

 

[DaveF]

An affordable and tasty Mac: http://www.123macmini.com/gallery/di...pn&cat=0&pos=6

 

[Jon_Are]

DaveF, you make valid points on Mac's pricing; seems like they want to retain some level of exclusivity with their products. Surely they've considered offering a more basic model, and just as surely they've chose not to (and don't call me Shirley).


Even with the academic discount, we barely did squeak in under budget (foregoing the Apple Care). As for the Office software, let's just say it's taken care of.

As for me switching to a Mac for my next computer, I continue to waffle (mmmmm, waffles). There are too many unknowns regarding software that I use that have me a-scared of Macs.

Jon

 

[DaveF]

Glad to hear you met your budget!

Unless you're using really esoteric (or rather old) software or hardware, I've no doubt you can switch. With BootCamp and Parallels you can run your Windows software: worst case, you've got an overpriced PC if you loathe using the Mac. But as Ron loves to observe, once you get going you start finding new Mac tools to replace PC software.

And were I to strike out on my own, a freelance engineer, I'd go Mac even though certain software is Windows only. I could run that in Parallels and everything else in OS X.

 

[Christ Reynolds]

I'll assume you are talking about Windows software. You are probably scared because you don't know all Intel Macs run Windows, natively and in virtualization (with additional software). No unknowns anymore.

CJ

 

[Jon_Are]

I've been playing around with my daughter's new MacBook and I'm liking it more and more. Still considering jumping the fence to a Mac on my next purchase.

Another quick question:

I have a full-install Microsoft Office Professional 2007 for PC. If I utilize this under VMware Fusion, will it work seamlessly as if I were running it on a PC? Or will I have to jump through a few hoops - however minor - while using it?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[DaveF]

My experience with Parallels is using Windows software is 95% seamless.
1) You first have to run Parallels, which takes an extra minute
2) I find Cmd-Tab (the Mac equiv. to Alt-Tab) gets trapped by Parallels as Alt-Tab, switching Windows programs, but not Mac. So, it interrupts my holistic work flow. But not a killer. Maybe it will get tweaked in future revisions.

But, basically, it works very well.

Friday, I ran my Ulead PhotoImpact 6 (bought ~1999) in Parallels. I mapped a network drive in WinXP back to my main Mac hard-drive. I then loaded PhotoImpact graphics files from my Windows partition and saved them as BMP and GIF files to my Mac drive. It ran without a hiccup, and yet another transition step is complete -- old Windows-specific files are converted to standard image formats.

My wife routinely runs MS Money 2003 in Parallels (in her own account on my machine) alongside Mac:Excel 2004 for finances. And the finance data is saved on the network harddrive, via the Airport Extreme. No issues.