ENTERPRISE renewed (all discussion here please!) (1 Viewer)

[Moe Maishlish]

Written & directed properly, it could lead to some very intriguing stories. You never know. There's no point in prejudging until we see how & where they plan on going with this.

I'm also in the "I enjoy Enterprise" camp, so I don't share the negative perspective that a lot of the detractors on this forum do. To each their own of course...

Moe.

 

[Mikel_Cooperman]

Detractors? WE can't have an opinion unless it's positive which is hard to have watching Enterprise in it's current state.

 

[Don S]

Well, that doesn't seem to be the point at all of the post you responded to. Right or wrong, there is a negative take on Enterprise in this forum by many, and it has many detractors. There's nothing at all wrong with that, but it is true. I also enjoy Enterprise, and it seems that THAT is more frowned upon than any detractors' comments ..

 

[Will_B]

Yeah, you know, just because I didn't like the trek spin-off "Deep Space 9", I didn't get angry about the show or roll my eyes at the people who enjoyed it. I wasn't calling for the DS9 producers to be fired.

What we have now are different Trek audiences. There are some who liked TOS, some who liked TNG, some who liked DS9, some who liked that other spin-off VOY, and from those different audiences you also have a fraction who liked more than one.

This lack of unity behind Enterprise is probably the result of Paramount having intentionally fractured the audience in the first place (with the different spinoffs as Next Gen was winding down).

The criticism that comes at Enterprise then comes in two flavors: People who like the concept of Enterprise but think that Berman should be doing a better job (ideally by letting someone else take over), and ALSO - and this is my point - by people from this "fractured" fandom, the different branches of which would would have written Enterprise differently had they been in charge. I.e., the TOS fans would have wanted Enterprise to be reminscent of Kirk's days, the DS9 fans might have wanted more soap, the Next Gen fans might have wanted more sense of family among the crew, the Voyager fans might have wanted...etc. So the result is there's a deafining roar of folks complaining about Enterprise.

And it's the job of the producer to try to discern what is just noise, and what is actually constructive criticism. I think they've been responding to the constructive criticism very well since the start of season three. The latest announcements seem also to indicate that they listened to the constructive criticism about the way the Vulcans on Enterprise are all plotty and nasty, and are going to write a storyline to answer this criticism in a way that the fans should appreciate.

Amazing they can work with all this noise.

 

[Jason Seaver]

The thing is, the folks who enjoy Enterprise seldom make a really convincing case as to why they do. I see a bad episode of Enterprise, and I'll usually list inconsistencies, flat acting, structural weaknesses in the story, or how they're just regurgitating what's been done, and better, before; whereas the folks who give it good marks often seem to argue "don't expect too much" or just say to "go away if you don't like it". I'll grant that we can be vicious, but I think we generally make the reasons for that viciousness clear.

 

[Frank Anderson]

I'm still wondering why people continue watch it if they dislike so many episodes?

[url=https://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/7/7d/images_smiley_spidey.gif] [/url]

 

[Mikel_Cooperman]

I pop my head in every so often to see if Enterprise is as good as some of you who praise it, and, well, I still think its pretty mundane. I think having watched the show for 30 odd years that I deserve to be a little choosy as to how the Franchise has gone down hill.
I was watching the the 3rd season finale of Farscape the other night and it was exciting and interesting and there was great emotion there and I don't see any of that with Enterprise or even Voyager. Believe me, I want to like it but it just doesn't deliver the goods.

Let's fact it, the people who like Trek now are in the minority. If you weren't, Enterprise might not be in the bottom 100 in the ratings and it might not have been in danger of being cancelled after year 3. Most people have tuned out and for good reason.

 

[Kwang Suh]

Think Comic Book Guy, and you have your answer.

 

[Jack Briggs]

Well, I'm not coming back. When trying to watch this current series, I discovered that all the negative impressions were affecting my ability to enjoy the series I do love so much. During my second cycling of the TNG boxsets, I found myself getting ultra-SF-fan picky about it and less tolerant of the less-than-stellar episodes.

I stopped watching Enterprise altogether, and things improved for me personally — though I am still in the middle of a months-long, self-imposed Star Trek hiatus in order to get the bad taste out of my synapses. I'm getting there, but will wait until fall before screening any more Trek on DVD.

Frank, I suppose the one driving reason that brings longtime, hardcore Trek veterans back to this whipping-boy series is a longstanding commitment to the Roddenberry-created and -inspired universe. It's because of this longstanding commitment and, often, decades-long love of this franchise that a majority of viewers — yes, majority — are aghast at what they see happening.

The Seav', pretty much, has given up on it. I have. And so have many others.

Next season, though, I want to organize things here in TV Shows so that the two camps can be happy. To those who have PM'd me with your concerns about posting positive reviews about this series while eschewing all the negative commentary by us Trek vets, I'm listening. I just haven't come up with the solution yet.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Jack, just open up 2 running threads - one pro and one con. The con posters (like yourself) won't be allowed to post in the positive thread, and vice-versa.

Glenn

 

[Will_B]

What Glen said. The pro thread can still have criticism, of course, but cynicism and tales of woe would be what the "con" thread is for.

 

[Mikel_Cooperman]

Is'nt the whole reason for forums like these is to have varied opinions about something??

 

[TheLongshot]

I tend to agree. Having one thread be a lovefest, and another to be a hatefest isn't a solution. I'd rather not have my opinion reenforced excusively.

I tend to agree with some of the other in this thread: If you see good in this show, convince us of it. Don't just stand silent because everyone disagrees with you. Express yourself. That's what this forum is for.

Jason

 

[Glenn Overholt]

That is normally a sound idea, but what happens with this is that the same people come on week after week and bitch about it. What kind of a 'kick yourself in the crotch' idiot would continue to watch it?

Those posts end up in the middle of a discussion about the show, and the discussion ends up getting sidetracked just to keep the negative views at bay. If it were face to face I can see the fists coming out, or at least some real crotch-kicking.

Glenn

 

[Rex Bachmann]

Will_B wrote (post #173):


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What we have now are different Trek audiences





What we have now is a dwindled (and ever dwindling) Trek audience.


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The criticism that comes at Enterprise then comes in two flavors: People who like the concept of Enterprise but think that Berman should be doing a better job (ideally by letting someone else take over), and ALSO - and this is my point - by people from this "fractured" fandom, the different branches of which would would have written Enterprise differently had they been in charge.





You left out a "flavor": those of us who came to love and admire TOS, TNG, and DS 9, and who want to see the imagined world of Star Trek continue to unfold, but if, and only if, progress is made in developping that world. Back-sliding, side-tracking, and retrospective revisionism, which is what most of Enterprise amounts to, are directly contrary to that purpose.



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. . . . criticism . . . comes at Enterprise . . . . by people from this "fractured" fandom, the different branches of which would would have written Enterprise differently had they been in charge. I.e., the TOS fans would have wanted Enterprise to be reminscent of Kirk's days, the DS9 fans might have wanted more soap, the Next Gen fans might have wanted more sense of family among the crew, . . . .





I'm a fan of all three of these and I wanted (and want) none of these things in particular. What I want to see in Star Trek, or, for that matter, in any other dramatic series labelling itself "science fiction", are sustained and earnest efforts to make the programs live up to that label. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing other.


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. . . . the Voyager fans might have wanted . . . etc.





Interesting (and telling) that you didn't---(couldn't???)---finish that part of your sentence.


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This lack of unity behind Enterprise is probably the result of Paramount having intentionally fractured the audience in the first place (with the different spinoffs as Next Gen was winding down).





Exactly what is the evidence for the statement that Paramount "intentionally fractured" the Star Trek viewership? I think, rather, that greed had far more to do with any "fracturing" that has occurred than anything else, just as that same greed drives the continued marketing of the branded "product", which often comes off as "Star Trek" in name only. If there's any more plain and patent example of the law of unintended consequences applicable to American tv-production history, I don't know what that would be.

Jack Briggs wrote (post #178):


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Next season, . . . . I want to organize things here in TV Shows so that the two camps can be happy. . . . I just haven't come up with the solution yet.





Glenn Overholt wrote (post #179):


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. . . just open up 2 running threads - one pro and one con. The con posters (like yourself) won't be allowed to post in the positive thread, and vice-versa.





(post #180):


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What Glen said. The pro thread can still have criticism, of course, but cynicism and tales of woe would be what the "con" thread is for.






And, pray tell, who will be appointed the arbiter of "cynicism" from "realism"? You?!? [Pffft!] So much for the concept of the open forum. That would be a terrible precedent.

(post #183):


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That is normally a sound idea,
. . . .





Not only is it a "sound idea", it is the very basis and purpose of an "open forum".


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. . . , but what happens with this is that the same people come on week after week and bitch about it.





As opposed to the weekly mantra of pollyanna-ish mediocrity worship: "I enjoyed that. It could've been better. I didn't expect much"?

Frank Anderson wrote (post #175):


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I'm still wondering why people continue watch it if they dislike so many episodes?





You're confused, I think, because you, like many others, seem to see Star Trek (whichever series) as "just another tv show", when it isn't. As a program, the original was a precedent-setting cultural phenomenon in the 1960s and 1970s, and the complex world of ST developped ever since, with its embodiment and projection of "middle America's" best and highest (perceived) hopes and values, has become an integral part of the culture. (True, even if that sounds bombastic.) Fans are willing to go to bat for it, or, if they see fundamental flaws in its current incarnation, are ready and willing to go against it as well. Bad or good, it inspires passion.

(post #183):


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If it were face to face I can see the fists coming out, or at least some real crotch-kicking.





Kinda proves my point.

(post #173):


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The criticism that comes at Enterprise then comes in two flavors: . . . . So the result is there's a deafining roar of folks complaining about Enterprise.

Amazing they can work with all this noise.





They get all this "noise", because their hype-machine brings it upon them. You seem to think that only what the other guy has to say about Enterprise and its producers is "noise", somehow exempting those in agreement with your position. Again, one man's "cynicism" is another man's "realism".



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. . . . it's the job of the producer to try to discern what is just noise, and what is actually constructive criticism. I think they've been responding to the constructive criticism very well since the start of season three. The latest announcements seem also to indicate that they listened to the constructive criticism about the way the Vulcans on Enterprise are all plotty and nasty, and are going to write a storyline to answer this criticism in a way that the fans should appreciate.





Uh, it is the "job of the producer" to produce the very best programming, technically, creatively, and economically, that he can within the strictures of commercial television production and distribution. That is the case not only because of the fans, but also in spite of the fans. One of the big, BIG problems with this program from the very start has been that it seems to be written to the lowest common denominator of "focus-group" opinion-poll demographics tyranny and the safe, bland, epigonal, and predictable retreading of worn paths.

 

[PhilipG]

Well, I'm all for having two threads. I'm sure it's quite easy for anyone here to distinguish between criticism and constructive criticism, and also between comments on the episode itself and comments on the show as a whole by people who didn't even watch the episode.

Or perhaps, just have one thread for "General discussion", where anyone can chime in about anything, and one for each episode, specifically for discussing that episode (after the episode has aired, ideally).

 

[TheLongshot]

That's a possibility, tho sometimes it is hard to seperate talking about an episode and talking about the series itself sometimes.

Course, we could just do the big ass threads, like the way Buffy was handled, but that gets unwieldy.

Personally, I don't think the supporters of this show need defending. If they truely belive this show is good, they wouldn't fear posting. Hell, I'd defend what I like.

I think most of the posters in the show threads have actually seen the shows when they comment, except for those who post before the show airs, with comments both ways. I know I've only posted when I've seen an episode, and I've tried to keep things as balanced as I could, but it is tough when a show is so persistantly mediocre as this one is. It is part of why I stuck with it last season.

Course, after the lame ending, it has chased me completely away from this show, so I probably won't post all that much next season.

Jason

 

[Jack Briggs]

Actually, the solution that I am pondering -- but am not decided on -- is continuing with Rex's "official" episode threads, with all opinions welcome. Then, at the same time, somebody can start an ongoing "Enterprise-appreciation" thread (sort of like that "Eternal Buffytastic" saga -- though, of course, given the show's small fan base, that ongoing thread won't reach such epic length). This, I think, would allow HTF's Enterprise fans to talk about their favorite episodes and other things they appreciate about the series while not having to deal with us negative old coots.

But don't start that thread until the new season starts.

 

[Mikel_Cooperman]

So essentially two forums are being created. One with YOUR opinion and the other with an opinion you dont agree with.
You might as well do that with Every forum on Home Theatre.

 

[Jack Briggs]

Easy there, guys.