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DVI and Firewire can we convert to Component, making us not need a new tv?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Paul Seyfarth, Apr 26, 2003.

  1. Paul Seyfarth

    Paul Seyfarth Stunt Coordinator

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    I started looking for a HDTV about a month ago. I keep on hearing about DVI, and firewire connections, since I don't know whats going to win I would like to get a tv that has both.

    But they are all going to be new, and I won't be able to find a great price on them. Does anyone know if there would be things that convert the DVI or Firewire outputs to Component video? If so how would it work, and would there be a loss of quality?

    Anyone have any info on this, or tried something like that out?
     
  2. Richard Paul

    Richard Paul Stunt Coordinator

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    To answer your question which will win I would say both. The one you would really need on your TV though is DVI-HDCP since that is the most secure of the two connections and the one which is most future-proof. The reason DVI-HDCP is most secure is because the video is uncompressed and encrypted while Firewire is MPEG-2 and encrypted. DVI-HDCP will certainly be the connection Hollywood will push the most for any future pre-recorded formats. Firewire has it's own advantages one of which is that its the only connection which can record HDTV. Since that is only important for devices that record HDTV it would not be needed on the TV. Of course having both on a TV would be great if you live in an area with several local HDTV channels since you would then need only an antenna to watch them.

    Several manufacturers are releasing new HDTV RPTV's that will be coming out in a few months which have both connections at more reasonable prices than last years models. An example is Sony whose only models that had both DVI-HDCP and Firewire connections cost $5,000 for a 57" while this year Sony will release a 57" with both connections for $3,000.

    The reason manufacturers are going to use DVI-HDCP is to create a secure connection that can't be recorded. They will do their best to prevent the creation or sell of devices that can convert it to another connection. Such devices may still become available but would be illegal and expensive. To a lesser extent this would also apply to Firewire content which is encrypted.
     
  3. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Screenwriter

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    Maybe you might want to hold off buying an HDTV until this DVI vs. component issue gets settled down and also prices come down.

    Then, too, if we cannot record HDTV, we will be going back to the bad old days when the only way to watch is to be in front of the TV when the show comes on. Thos of us who want to watch what we want when we want will still have to use standard definition TV video and for that you don]t need an expensive HDTV set.

    Video hints:
    http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm
     
  4. Mike_Sidden

    Mike_Sidden Auditioning

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    I'm not sure if this will help and I really don't know if this is the right type of cable, but it maybe worth looking into if you have a DVI source and only component inputs.

    http://www.projector.com/kore/catalo...D/product.html

    Let us know if this works for you.

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  5. Paul Seyfarth

    Paul Seyfarth Stunt Coordinator

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    Please someone tell me if that works, that way I can get a cheap direct view with only component video. There is an Open Box 32" samsung at best buy right now, or a 36XBR400 local online.

    Edit: wouldn't we have to try it on an encoded broadcast to know if it works?
     
  6. Joshua_Y

    Joshua_Y Screenwriter

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    All I care about is HD-DVD...I will still be able to hook that up to my HDTV with component right?
     
  7. Dave Mark

    Dave Mark Stunt Coordinator

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    Yes, someone please tell me if this would allow me to view DVDs from a DVI source (such as the new Samsung DVD upconverting players) to my KP51HW40 set (no DVI input)at HD resolution.
     
  8. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    Its really hard to say what will happen. I should note though that the DMCA which makes a converter box from dvi-component illegal is only valid in the US, the rest of the world can do what it likes, they just cant sell it in the US.

    as well teh DMCA has been taking heavy fire for a number of years so far its still there but for how long?

    Long story short I am not worried about DVI and i really dont think it will come to pass, far too many people have HDTV's with only component.

    funny also i read anothe thread where someone mentioned how funny it is that Audio is going analog to prevent copying and video is going digital for the same reason....

    Edit: that cable wont work cause it cannot do anything about the copy protection on the signal. you would ahve to take care of that then do the conversion.
     
  9. Lew Crippen

    Lew Crippen Executive Producer

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  10. Tyler DJW

    Tyler DJW Stunt Coordinator

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  11. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    Unfortunately Tyler I think we who understand what you have just said are in the vast minority.

    Your explainationw as one of the best I have ever heard. and like my friend Jagan always says if it is playable it is piratable.

    the thing that has always confused me is the fact that computers can easily have a DVI input, with the input im sure a decoder for the copy protection could be easily made and that would make copying of HDTV even easier wouldn't it?

    seems like DVI and firewire are just handing it to the computer people of the world [​IMG]
     
  12. Richard Paul

    Richard Paul Stunt Coordinator

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    DVI-HDCP is never meant to be recorded but Firewire is specifically made for recording which is why Hollywood is only supporting DVI-HDCP. Has anyone ever seen a DVD player that outputs protected content by Firewire? I haven't but I've seen several that output on DVI-HDCP.
     
  13. Paul Seyfarth

    Paul Seyfarth Stunt Coordinator

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    So I should get a TV with DVI input? What would I not be able to watch without DVI input? As in what types of things would I not be able to get in full high def, some stations, movie channels, pay per view, what?
     
  14. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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  15. Tyler DJW

    Tyler DJW Stunt Coordinator

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    Richard, you make many excellent points. What really strikes me is that everyone seems to be clamouring to get a TV with DVI when there is no way CURRENTLY to switch between DVI devices. You shouldn't need to buy a receiver and HDMI-DVI connectors to watch different sources, though I have to acknowledge that that was how switching component video has worked for me.

     
  16. Richard Paul

    Richard Paul Stunt Coordinator

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    Paul, the truth is at the moment there's only one thing I know of that requires a DVI-HDCP and that is DVD players that upconvert video to 720p/1080i for HDTV's. Hollywood is REALLY paranoid over any HDTV content being recorded but the biggest reason they are pushing DVI-HDCP is for pre-recorded HDTV. I know D-VHS uses component video but D-Theater is truly a temporary solution since the studios will want pre-recorded Blu-Ray/HD-DVD to output only on HDMI. A good example of this is the fact that there are no DVD players which upconvert video to 720p/1080i and deliver over component along with the fact there are no DVD players that send video over Firewire. The fact that the studios won't even allow upconverted DVD video over component is one of the best signs (or worst for those with HDTV's that lack DVI-HDCP) of Hollywoods paranoia.

    John, the data rate for 1080p is the same as 1080i which is [1080*1920*24(24bit RGB)*30(fps) = 1,492,992,000 bits per second] or 1,500Mbps. TV cards are not illegal mainly because they have legitimate use though all legal TV cards can't record Macrovison protected content. Both HDMI and DVI-HDCP are never meant to be recorded though and therefore a card that can decode them would have no legitimate use. Hollywood currently says HDMI/DVI-HDCP would only be required for pre-recorded content which would be no different than Macrovision in purpose. It's if they try to use HDMI/DVI-HDCP for pay per view movies or even channels which would set off a fight over fair use rights and definitely not help the sell of HDTV's. Most of the world has laws concerning copyright laws and the breaking of encryption, also Hollywood has a way of getting laws passed (Disney extended US copyrights 20 years and its only one company!). I must admit of knowing no Canadian laws though but if it is illegal to break Macrovision then breaking HDMI/DVI-HDCP encryption is probably illegal (many laws are passed with an eye for the future).

    Tyler, it is a bit odd that no own has released a DVI-HDCP switcher but one still can't go to your average home electronics store and get a component video switcher either (way things are going may never be necessary). The main reason is simply the lack of demand since of the 4% of the US population with HDTV's only about 1% are using them for HDTV (3% use it for DVD viewing). I'm not sure I'm right but I believe that is how things will turn out, but in several ways it would be better if I'm wrong about the future of HDMI/DVI-HDCP. The studios know that stopping pirates is impossible but they believe that HDMI will make it harder for the pirates. Hollywood studios paranoia is not unjustified so much as greatly exaggerated. There are people that will many times do what is wrong and cheap than right and expensive when they see the victims as multi-millionares. Hollywood simply believes that everyone is like that and therefore believe that only technology and strict laws can prevent their studios from going broke. Manufactures add DVI-HDCP because Hollywood has made it clear it wishes to have future products use it. Besides Mitsubishi which belongs to the 1394 Trade Association, which is trying their best to make Firewire the digital connection of the future, all the major television companies are adding HDMI/DVI-HDCP (Panasonic is coming out with an HDTV with HDMI this year). To manafacturers there is little reason to go against HDMI/DVI-HDCP especially if it's advertised as a "feature" even for displays that get no advantage in picture quality from it (all CRT based HDTV's).
     
  17. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    Richard you bring up some very good points. personally i am just worried that the HDTV i own will not be able to display full HDTV in the future because some copy protection connection is needed. and I am also of the mind that manufacturers or someone will be in a whole ehap of trouble if it somes out that their HDTV ready sets are not infact HDTV ready in a year or so if DVI-HDCP comes in.

    on a related note a court in the US recently ruled that programs like morpheous are not illegal, but using them for the majority of their purposes is.... weired how laws work but anyway my point is in a few eyars we might ahve rulings sayign that a converter box that will decode and output component is legal when used simply to view programming.
     

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