DVD Rot! My Sweet Hereafter has gone to the sweet hereafter (1 Viewer)

[Burke Strickland]

I've never had a problem with my early version of Contact (a suspect since many have had a problem with that one), but I haven't checked it lately.

Having read so much about problems with that one, I played mine (which I bought the week it was first released on DVD) again last week. I was relieved that it played all the way through with no problems.

Actually with all but one of the DVDs I've had playback problems with, the glitches seem to be specific-machine-related. Typically, if they won't play on my Sony, they'll play just fine on my Pioneer or vice versa. (There was one disc that wouldn't play properly in either of those stand-alone players but did OK in my computer-based DVD drive. So given that it will play on SOMETHING I own, I didn't try to replace it.)

However, having had a number of laser discs deteriorate over time, exhibiting the classic pixelization, I am still willing to believe that the possibility of DVD degradation exists, whatever we choose to call it. As for replacing the defective laser discs, that's what a few of my DVD purchases covered. (I just hope the DVD versions stay properly laminated.) :>)

 

[Thomas T]

Todd, my Pioneer DV 343 is hardly a high end player and I paid $200 for it brand new! As I said in my earlier post, both Moulin Rouge! and Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs had glitches or so I thought but when I played them on my Pioneer DV 505 they played okay so I took the DV 343 in to my authorized Pioneer dealer where they put in a new chip and it plays like a dream.
However, it did take them almost two months to locate the problem (they said they had problems getting the chip from Pioneer). Thank heavens, I had the back up player. Two months without DVD watching, the horror!
I watched Contact and My Fair Lady recently which many seem to have had problems with and they both played just fine. I'll have to scan The Sweet Hereafter today or this weekend to see how it plays but I don't anticipate any problem.

 

[Jefferson]

My disc of OLIVER! does this now at the layer change...exactly the same symptoms...

 

[Todd Robertson]

My disc of OLIVER! does this now at the layer change...exactly the same symptoms...

have you been able to test it on other players? many here are convinced that it's always a player problem. make sure it's the disc...then we can welcome you to the "dvds are made like crap" club. let us know. some would rather ignore the problem to feel better...like denial. I refuse to feel anything much more than dissapoitment until we start hearing from industry leaders, which I thought are suppose to frequent these forums.

 

[Tom Rhea]

I've had problems with discs doing this exact same thing on every single player I've ever owned (a total of seven -- we have three tvs and lots of problems with players) EXCEPT the one that has NEVER had a cd played in it. Which makes me wonder, could playing a cd in a dvd player cause it to screw up with dvds?

 

[GlennH]

I haven't played my copy of OLIVER! in quite some time. Can you tell me where (approx. time) the layer change is so I can check mine out?

 

[Andy Kim]

I think its the player. I mean the fact that the problem is occurring at the layer change doesn't necessarily mean its the disc. Not all players can do a seamless layer change thus trying it on a number of players (especially an APEX) would of course reproduce the problem at the same place.
And the disc was problem free on another player.

 

[GlennH]

It has nothing to do with a "seamless" layer change. The discs that have gone bad for me have had problems on all of my players.

Example -- when I first bought MY FAIR LADY it worked just fine all the way through on my Toshiba SD-2108 and Philips 825AT DVD players. Trying to play it over a year later on the Toshiba it started to "stutter" and temporarily freeze up in the chapter where the layer change occurs. Problems continued for the remainder of the film, making it virtually unwatchable. I put the disc in the Philips player. It also had problems in the same areas, but not quite as bad as on the Toshiba. So I put it in my PC DVD-ROM drive. It would not play at all past the layer change and completely locked up the PC when you tried to skip past that chapter. No, the disc was not damaged, had no finger prints, dirt, scratches or anything, except for an obvious ring of discoloration on the disc surface. It is apparent to me that the problems are related to separation of the disc layers.

The story on the other problem discs I've had has been similar. Now I have a Panasonic RP-91 in place of the Toshiba, but I always test any problem disc on all players. Usually they react slightly differently but the problems are there on all.

An exception to this was the problem that my Toshiba had with certain newer (at the time) Disney releases like 102 DALMATIANS and THE EMPEROR'S NEW GROOVE. Repeatable freezeups and stuttering at specific locations on the disc. Several other owners of similar Toshiba models reported here the same exact issues. But my other players had no problems at all. Now THAT one was a player issue, and ultimately why I got rid of the Toshiba since no firmware updates were available, and I was ready for progressive scan anyway.

I don't understand why some people want to deny that a DVD can go bad. Of course it can. It's a physical thing subject to manufacturing problems just like anything else. Sometimes the problem is the player, sometimes the disc. The problem isn't widespread, but it absolutely is real.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

It's hard to sometimes determine if a particular problem one is having is disc-related or player-dependent...but the fact remains that rot is a real issue and *can* affect multiple-players and render a disc readable/playable.

I hope that the manufacturers figure out how to fix this. Years after laserdisc rot was supposed to be a "thing of the past" I *still* had columbia tristar laserdiscs rotting right and left. Indian in the Cupboard was the last Columbia film I bothered to purchase on LD for that reason...and it rotted too!!!!

 

[Todd Robertson]

I hope that the manufacturers figure out how to fix this.

I agree...even pray on it. but the fact is THEY HAVE NO CLUE...because they are still UNAWARE OF THE PROBLEM. hearing it from a handful of us just cant cut it. because of this...the dvd world will die much sooner than predicted.

We need to beat the denial out of people in order to form our army. industry leaders must hear from us in large numbers. but most dvd buyers are casual viewers who buy maybe a dvd or 2 a week..if that. I used to buy 10 dvds a week....but I've cut down to about 1..maybe 2. I mean c'mon, vhs tapes out-live dvds? it's just a sad fact.

by the way, I may have strong opinions...but I'm no expert. just a loyal..or was...dvd consumer and film lover. but why DOES a dvd need to be dual-layered anyway? maybe someone can share the light. this is taking all the fun out of watching films...and thats sad.

 

[Todd Hochard]

but why DOES a dvd need to be dual-layered anyway?

Because for many titles, the space is needed. Single layer DVD is 4.7GB, but a dual layer is 8.5GB (somewhere around there). If all films, complete with multiple surround formats and languages, were required to be jammed into single-layer discs, they wouldn't look very good. The video bitrate would have to be held too low, leaving you with lots of artifacts. You can look at some of the early releases that were single layer (from 1997), and see just this.
Not all DVDs are dual layer, but many are, out of necessity.

Sure, you could go dual sided instead, but "flippers" are pretty much universally reviled among the DVD crowd.

Contact and Ghostbusters still working here. Denon DVD-2500 player (circa 1999). I'll take a look at the 3rd and 4th discs of FTETTM.

I haven't had a single rot issue yet, among about 500 titles.

It could still be a player issue. The optics on the pickup must be in good shape to correctly do a read-through. For those that say "you don't watch enough," I say that could still be the player- heavy use issue- there are going to be a finite number of operating hours a player will work. And, it seems I keep seeing the name brand names pop up. What player do you have, Todd?

Todd

 

[Todd Robertson]

Thanks for the info Todd. I have 2 sonys. the DVP-S530d and a much older S330. I dont rely much on the older player because of all the heavy use.

I heard Denon makes a great dvd player. does it read errors better I wonder? do you think high-end players(over5 or 600) are truley better at handeling issues? was thinking about getting a Denon...and using my newer sony as a back-up?

 

[Todd Hochard]

Standing offer-
Since I seem to have the best luck ever, anyone can send me their defective DVDs, and I'll try them on my apparent miracle player. I'll try it, and send it back. As a long-time HTF member, I promise not to stiff anyone.
Seriously. Email me if you like. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's situation. I'm a troubleshooter for a living, and one of my peeves is the manner in which many engineers I've dealt with over the years will instantly declare the source of the problem, without having done any sort of real isolation. The sky might be falling- we just need to wait until it gets closer, so we can see it.
Have you tried any DVD-Rom players?
My Denon is based on the Panasonic A120 chassis. Most Denon players to this day use the optics from Panasonic. And, generally speaking, with Panasonic optics, they work right, or they don't. No glitches in between- they're either good, or the player is basically dead (and, back in the A110 era, many did die). That's my take from this and other boards.
I don't think you get better error correction, necessarily, from spending more money. But, based on the size of your DVD collection, ponying up $600 for a player ought to be a drop in the bucket, eh?
What sort of display are you using, or intending to use in the near future?

 

[Todd Robertson]

uh-oh...gonna get razzed for this:

What sort of display are you using, or intending to use in the near future?

I've been so caught up in stocking up on titles that my new monitor purchase fell behind...time wise. right now I only have a 36" Toshiba...and nope...not even HD. I know, I know...I deserve a thrashing. I do have about 2,500 saved up for my new widescreen. Im leaning twords either a Pioneer model or a Sony I saw for about 3,500. hopefully, late next month.

I have no plans to jump ship on dvds. there really is no longer a choice, is there? I'd be very unhappy without my films. as long as things dont get worse...I can deal with it. at least I'll keep telling myself that.

 

[GlennH]

Todd H., I'd gladly send you one of my problem discs if I still had them. But they've all been replaced now.

Come to think of it, doesn't the fact that the replacement discs I've gotten play fine tend to speak against the "it's always the player" theory. If a player is having trouble with a particular DVD release and the DVD is fine then why wouldn't said player have problems with *any* copy of said DVD?

By the way, this was the case with the problem I mentioned earlier with Disney titles on my old Toshiba player. It was repeatable with a different disc of the same title.

 

[Todd Hochard]

I didn't say it was always the player- I'm just saying it's not always the discs.

Or, maybe I am just really lucky.

 

[Todd Robertson]

Or, maybe I am just really lucky.

wish you could bottle that up, I'll take a case please. only time will tell, eh?

 

[Todd Hochard]

Todd,

The Pioneer 643-HD5 at Costco has to be one of the best deals going. $2599 at my local store, for 64" widescreen. This has the fantastic Elite ProHD-x10's PureCinema line doubler in it, which is among the best in any RPTV. If I were getting a RPTV today, this would be on a very short list.
I've had the Elite Pro-510HD (53") for a little over two years now. It's been great.

Todd

 

[Rohan_B]

Hi folks,
I'm in Australia and have had a couple of Region 4 discs go belly-up on me post layer change (tested in several players). I also happen to work in a failure analysis laboratory, so I have been able to do some independent research on the problem.
Extensive examination of my 'problem' discs using high-magnification optical microscopy has revealed the presence of multitudes of black spots in the reflective metallic coating of the second layer, corresponding to the approximate locations of the content I am having trouble playing back. I have several images you can view at my website here: www.andraste.org/discfault/discfault.htm
I am currently in discussions with a local (Melbourne based) replicating plant regarding the issue and they have also had a look at these discs. They have taken the issue up with some local distributors and informed me that I have managed to 'stir the pot' somewhat.
I have also been in independent contact with some of the local distributors. Columbia-Tristar have taken particular interest and told me they are forwarding the information on to 4 Australian pressing plants and their head plant in Austria for comment.
As to what I *think* is happening ... the problem appears to be unique to dual-layer DVDs and is probably related to the resin used to bond the layers together.
The polycarbonate substrates of dual layer discs are bonded using a 'free radical UV curing' resin. The resin is applied in liquid form and UV light hardens it to a strong bond. It is my belief that if the bond resin is not quite cured correctly, excess reactive chemicals may still be present within the disc. These chemicals will diffuse around looking for something the react with.
The reflective coating used for the first layer of a dual layer disc is usually gold, sometimes silicon. Gold and silicon are pretty much inert to everything. The reflective coating used for the second layer of a dual layer disc is aluminium. Aluminium is extremely reactive under the right conditions. The rate controlling factor would then be the time it takes the active chemicals to diffuse to the aluminium and react with it. This may be of the order of many months after original purchase and may explain why problems are usually not apparent when the discs are newly manufactured.
Finally, how do these tiny black spots affect playback? It is my belief that each of the spots generates a read error. The large number of spots probably result in read errors that exceed the error correction capabilities of most dvd players.
Hope this was of interest.
Rohan.

 

[Matt Everett]

When my copy of "Amarcord" died (no scratches, warpage, cloudiness or cracks at all) I posted my experience in this forum. Many of the replies insisted that it was a player error, despite the fact that I tested the disc in two players prior to posting, and both failed in the exact same manner. I tested it in two MORE players and had the same result. I doubt that 4 players were enough to please everyone, however.

Previous posters are correct in saying some people are in denial. I'm not happy that this is happening to anyone, but more and more I see that I am not alone.

I still defend the DVD format since I've only had one disc do this. If others start failing, I will be concerned.