Does SACD really have a future? (1 Viewer)

[Martin Rendall]

Lee,

Alas, you are right. But while I enjoy jazz and blues, I don't as a rule purchase much of it. I guess that's why SACD disappoints me so. But I'm sure I'm not alone; there's a whole world of unrepresented tastes out there with many more followers than jazz.

I guess if you were generalize my personal gripe, I would say that music isn't represented well enough to take the medium seriously. Is this because audiophiles willing to spend money on SACD only like jazz and classical? I sure hope not. How boring would that be?

Martin.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Too bad the local[SO Cal] BBs didn't get the "memo", maybe I should move to Atlanta.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Most audiophiles I know listen to a wide variety of music and I would guess a greater variety than the average music lover...but they do seem to purchase jazz and classical albums in great numbers. There are also many audiophile labels working on everything from Latin jazz (Chesky for instance) to bluegrass that sell a relatively high number of SACDs to their main base which often buys over the web or through local hifi or specialty music shops.

I don't view this as boring. In fact I think jazz and classical have more great performances than much pop and alternative music these days. Audiophiles like craftmanship which is sadly missing in much mainstream music these days. I'm using a loose interpretation of music here so you can include rap.

 

[PaulDA]

My wife and I were discussing this the other night. I said, "I guess turning into our parents is inevitable. I don't mean our specific parents, but the 'old fogeys' we used to mock." I was referring to popular music and my purchasing habits. I tried to think of a pop act, unknown to me over 5 years ago, whose music I'd purchased. I came up with 2 acts, 3 discs. In jazz and classical, I've more than tripled my collection in the last three years. I heard the following emerge from my lips: All this stuff on the radio today is crap. Then I laughed and talked about the parent thing cited above.

My feeling is that people who care about hi-res audio tend to be a bit older with more disposable income to throw at discs whose prices would have seemed scary when younger. Those same people tend to move toward jazz and classical as they grow older. The independent labels that are currently the most vigorous supporters of hi-res are largely geared to jazz and classical already, so the phenomenon continues to feed itself. And, I guess, I've fallen into the demographic I just described. No doubt there is much new music that is interesting, exciting and would be a welcome addition to my collection. But I never hear any on the radio--to the point that I listen to CBC radio documentaries and NPR news more than anything else, as current pop music on the radio bores (and sometimes nauseates) me. How many Britney clones do I need to hear?

You ask if jazz and classical are all that "audiophiles" want? I would say no. But I would say "audiophiles" are more confident that jazz and classical music will be well recorded (part of being an audiophile is caring about sound quality); if you couple that with the fact that it seems that by 2010 there will be three radio stations broadcast around the US by repeater transmitters, all with the same 15 song playlist, you get either boredom with music in general (the "nobody cares about hi-res" crowd) or a greater concentration by independents in the tried and true jazz and classical arenas--leaving those who would like good, new music in hi-res sound out in the cold.

 

[Matt Fisher]

Good points Paul, except the problem is, at least from the point of view of myself, a 20 year old college student, is that too great a percentage of the industry shares your views. Jazz and blues are great, and a great piece of music deserves a great hi-res production. However, where does it leave the 18-30 year old crowd, who although may like those genres, might not be willing to dive into a new format mainly based on the catalog availablity of them. I've been lucky enough to spoil myself through hard-earned money to become somewhat of a technology nerd, and I've always looked to buy the best within my price range. Why did I choose DVD-A? I saw the small catalog of amazing artists...The Doors, Steely Dan, Bob Marley, Queen...that made it worthwhile to spend the extra money, and enjoy those few releases THAT much more. I'm lucky to have the musical taste of a 40-something, because if I liked the same music as most of my friends, the only discs I would've picked up by now would be Missy Elliot's and 3 Doors Down's releases. Everyone wants these hi-res formats to kick off, no? Then marketing needs to be shifting towards a more mainstreamed audience, not mainstream Britney, but a catalog of say the Stones, or Zeppelin, something people who might not be audiophiles get so excited about, that they take it upon themselves to invest in it. Just some more ranting on my behalf.

 

[PaulDA]

I agree entirely. More mainstream releases would lower costs all around (somewhat), incite more people to buy hi-res, which would lead to more titles and so on. However, as Rachael has pointed out, predatory pricing releases of CD versions of titles also available on hi-res at sometimes 40% less won't incite people to buy hi-res. Hence the scenario I described above. The obvious solution is single inventory SACDs and (much as I'm wary of DualDisc--owing to a lack of firm commitment to hi-res audio on the DVD side) DualDiscs. The greater volume of sales would offset the initial costs, everyone could play them almost everywhere, people could still "rip" mp3s of the CD layers and load their iPods, and hi-res music would be ubiquitous. Nice idea, but I'm now convinced it's a pipe dream.

 

[Martin Rendall]

PaulDA,

As a mid-thirty year old, I agree with your radio station comments. The thing is, I also agreed with them when I was 25. And also when I was 20. Commercial radio is just the tip of the musical iceberg. Can't any of the actual original interesting and good new millenium music be hi-rez? There's always college radio. Interesting music between feminist angst, radical environmental or communism radio shows.

Seriously, you're from Quebec, so there's a chance you may have heard of them or even seen them live; I would kill to get my hands on a well recorded and produced multichannel SACD recording of a live concert by Godspeed You Black Emperor! OK, now I'm well off topic and just dreaming out loud.

Martin.

 

[PaulDA]

Sorry, haven't heard them or of them (guess I'm a seriously "old" fogey)

Way back in the seventies, on the cool stations, FM DJs often just brought a stack of interesting LPs and played what they wanted, thereby introducing us to new and unusual music (this was especially true of the 9pm to 6am block of airtime). It's how most of my (slightly) older friends and relatives discovered a lot of music (this practice had started to wane by the time I became old enough to stay up that late, but there were still some stations doing this in the late seventies). Can't say I've found anything like that since.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Yes! I am increasingly convinced that Alison Krauss and Union Station may some of the most talented musicians on the planet. Almost all of their albums are out on SACD except the most recent which is probably coming and enjoying HEAVY rotation in my car.

Another example is Beck. There is really good modern music on SACD if you look.

The fact is that most radio is just drowning a playlist that some corporate types have assembled. The more interesting and obscure music does not get airplay. That's why I rely on trips to Tower for CDs and SACDs.

 

[Matt Fisher]

Paul, just curious, but based on your thoughts of MP3's still ruling out the world of hi-res, do you believe the new generation of upcoming HD-DVD will not survive, as it is becoming extremely easy now to practically copy a single or dual layer DVD verbatim? The closest example I can draw is those who pirate DVD's into DivX/VCD/SVCD/etc., it's nearly an identical comparison, a regular sized 4.7gig single-layer disc is often compressed down to 650mb, like a full music CD is encoded down to MP3 at say 100mb. However, it's clear that DVD has barely been affected because DVD sales are not commonly outgrossing box office figures by extraordinary ratios. Do you think we're stuck with red books for the next 50 years until every single person who has MP3s has been sued by RIAA? I think this is just a format that those in charge, well, need to take charge. I agree with everything being said about radio, and with the current trend of people subscribing to satellite services, traditional radio will be dieing down over the next few decades, probably with the exception of NPR, college radio, etc. and what better alternative to modern crap radio, then introducing, well not really "introducing", but fully marketing at least hi-res?

 

[Martin Rendall]

Sorry Lee,

One or two titles does not a rhobust catalog make. And that Beck album: gotta be his more boring effort of all time.

Martin.

 

[Rachael B]

In the 60's and 70's radio was really fun. It was off the wall and you called the stations all the time to win stuff, or could. Your voice with a slight time delay might be on the air. The public really drove the hits, not vice-versa, like now! In the late 60's I'd request Hello It's Me by Nazz and they'd play it. That was fun. I bet you get recordings if you call stations other than College Radio these days?

There was always corporate music in the mix that was gonna get played but there sure was more space for real musicans! Can you imagine Tiny Tim getting airplay 2-day? I can't! They would sign different sounding groups and actually play them. Seatrain was different sounding with lead electric fiddle, had a hit, 13 Questions. Sugarloaf, different sounding, sort'a? Had hits. I can't magine them on today's radio ever!

I can't imagine a new "Jefferson Airplane" in today's political climate. I can't imagine a new Mama Cass because she'd too fat to wear bikinis and navel rings and dance for a proper video, in today's mundo! If Linda Ronstadt had made an antiwar statement people would of cheered, not had a hissy fit. If a second coming of Mozart came along today, they'd send him away because he doesn't fit any popular formats.

The slots for real musicans has shrunk and shrunk, on radio, that is. Plastic-pop, boy bands, girl bands, the same old beatbox,....the real musicans locked out, relegated to college radio or websites.

Think how many of today's great musicans aren't at all famous because of the New Kids Who Can't Rock and the Backdoor Boy and the Spiced Gurls and the ect. carbons. I think there's more great musicans than ever and few of 'em are famous.

Think about songs that just couldn't happen anymore. The Times They Are A'Changin', Ohio, Tricky Dick, Eve Of Destruction, I Feel Like I'm Fixin' To Die Rag, IMO, in today's climate they just wouldn't happen! I can't imagine it.

If it wasn't for the two U. Of TN stations here I'd despise radio. I miss the outlaw station we had for 2 years too. It was a hoot! Corporate raid-io can kiss my____.

 

[PaulDA]

Matt,

I do think HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) will be a more gradual transformation than DVD, as it is an evolution, not a revolution. What you describe will have a bit of impact, but I'd say indirectly. While I know plenty of people who download music (legally and illegally--I had a brief fling with Napster about 3-4 years ago, mostly for hard to find or out of print songs from one hit wonders, but the poor sound quality eventually turned me off [besides, Chevy Van at a party once is funny, more than that is pathetic] ) I know only two people who do what you describe above, and each of them is A) a serious computer nerd (I mean that in a friendly way--I say it to their faces and they laugh [and call me an old man]) and B) young and relatively poor. But what they have in common with many other people I know is a nonchalance toward high quality video (and care even less about high quality audio). Most people I know switched to DVDs because they're convenient (no rewinding, no tape breaking, no "dirty picture" from rentals--though scratched discs occasionally pop up), look "A LOT" better than VHS, were cool, and one machine could play movies and CDs. Also, VHS had been around for 20 years, so switching to a new format seemed reasonable.

While I don't have a hi-def TV, I've taken some friends to see some hi-def TVs with D-VHS (talk about a niche market--at least for pre-recorded movies; it will probably last for a bit for those who want to record copies of hi-def broadcasts) and upconverting DVD players. They all love the BIG screens, but couldn't really see the big deal between the upcoverting DVD players and D-VHS. There was a difference, but not a dramatic one in their eyes (less than the difference between VHS and DVD was the consensus). Plus, when I tell my friends that a hi-def version of DVD is coming soon, they all say "What, I have to restock my collection again?! I just got into DVD and already it's obsolete! Forget it." Perhaps these upconverting players (as many are already quite affordable) will keep HD-DVD in the same boat as hi-res audio (though not to the same marginalized degree).

The only way I can see widespead adoption of either hi-def DVD or hi-res audio is for the content providers to stop making standard versions available. And they'll never do it. Besides, they're not interested in giving us the best quality, just the most profitable product. Look at how many people buy FULL SCREEN, pan and scan versions of DVDs. When those people finally switch to a 16x9 TV, they'll all be using the ZOOM button to fill in the bars on the sides (in fact, aren't there a number of TVs that do this automatically? I sure as hell won't be buying one of those. OAR or nothing is my motto.) DVD was a perfect opportunity to eliminate FULL SCREEN, pan and scan versions (of course 4x3 material should remain 4x3 as well) but NOOOOOOOO. Instead, the clamour of philistines made content providers see another source of revenue. Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

Someday, everyone will have hi-def video, hi-res audio all in the same format. By then, of course, it will be quaint and outdated, as holographic imaging reaches the masses and all this debating will seem as meaningless as the debate over phlogiston (do a google search).

Just my 2 cents.

Oh, and just to bring this back on topic, it would help SACD's future a great deal if they could arrange to be part of the hi-def video world as an audio option (like DTS is optional to Dolby on standard discs). MLP is already on board and if hi-def video takes off at all, it will give MLP a serious leg up on DSD as the hi-res formula of choice.

 

[Matt Fisher]

Good points Paul, I certainly agree with the whole FS/WS aspect about DVDs, and it would've been a great opportunity to make sure people are only buying OAR, but like you said, it's all about that $. The tricky thing is, I know people who only buy FS because "those black bars are annoying." I think that because too many people just don't get why viewing a movie in OAR, or listening to a recording in hi-res has more value and artistic importance, it's probably going to remain, well not so much WS DVD as many people buy it, but hi-res audio will be a niche market for a long time to come.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Martin,

I'm not arguing that SACD has lots of modern music but that there is some of it in quality. SACD will be geared to audiophiles as a niche product so the catalog for jazz and classical will be the focus.

I'm afraid it may take longer for hirez to widen out to mainstream music. My guess it will occur at some point given the dated nature of the technology and the ease of recording in hirez.

 

[Phil A]

http://www.ce.org/publications/books...o_surround.asp

Some interesting facts about auto players and all hi-rez from a neutral source:

"In 2000, only one aftermarket company offered an in-dash car DVD-Audio player, but in 2004, four aftermarket companies are expected to offer players, although prices still start at more than $1,000.

In 2003, Acura became the first automaker to offer DVD-Audio, which was available as standard equipment in the 2004 Acura TL. Additional automakers are expected to offer DVD-Audio in late 2004 for the 2005 model year.

The first car SACD player is expected in 2005 from at least one aftermarket supplier. "

 

[Lee Scoggins]

According to Brian Moura, heavyweights Harmon Kardon and Philips have been working on this. Lexus is supposedly looking into it as well.

The Acura DVDA systems are great but I wish they had a universal capability.

 

[Seppo]

I think I'll just stick to stereo when it comes to music - apart from music DVDs though.

 

[PaulDA]

As long as RCA keeps putting out those Living Stereo releases, SACD has a future in my rig. Spent the afternoon listening to Reiner's Strauss disc, Zarathustra and Ein Heldenleben.

 

[Rachael B]

Has anybody cross-refrenced this thread with the Star Fleet Manual's section on Temporal Distortions & Events?