Did THX ever have that "discussion" about the EE on Phantom Menace DVD??? (1 Viewer)

[Grant H]

Does anyone know if the re-release of TPM in Full Frame also had visible EE? That would be a really mean trick if its transfer is actually better (except for being cropped to hell of course).

All I can say is I'm pissed off enough now when I rent or buy a new DVD and see the transfer marred by edge enhancement; when the time comes that I start buying HD-DVD's I'm going to be unbelievably upset if I see EE on those transfers. I've already had to re-purchase too many titles just for the EE-free transfer I should have had in the first place. (and in some cases, like Stargate, still haven't gotten) If the studios pull the same EE stunt with HD-DVD it will be completely unacceptable.

Is there any worldwide consortium devoted to the defeat of Edge Enhancement? There should be. It must be defeated completely before HD-DVD's are pressed.

p.s. If Artisan takes their 1080p transfer and adds Edge Enhancement to it for the first HD-DVD release of T2 who's going to help me take them out like Cybderdyne Systems? I pray they wouldn't do that just to make me buy it again later EE free. As good as I hear the T2 Extreme Edition (or ironically EE) looks, I don't think they could get away with it. It's more likely I suppose that they'd release it 720p or 1080i first and later release a 1080p version Here's hoping 1080p will be the(one)standard so they can't pull that one either.

 

[Adam Tyner]

All that is ultimately required, as I've said repeatedly, is that the image be rendered in full resolution to be critically evaluated at a 1.5 viewing distance.

I wonder how many owners of 36" televisions sit four and a half feet from their set. I know I don't.

 

[RobertR]

I wonder how many owners of 36" televisions sit four and a half feet from their set. I know I don't.

It doesn't matter. I believe the point David is making is that if the image quality is rendered to the high standard he suggests, it will ALSO be good for those with smaller displays. He's saying that we should NOT settle for a lower quality standard, any more than we should settle for audio that's "calibrated" for a Bose Wave Radio.

 

[Donnie Eldridge]

According to someone over at the AVS Forum the meeting was canceled due to liability reasons.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

It doesn't matter. I believe the point David is making is that if the image quality is rendered to the high standard he suggests, it will ALSO be good for those with smaller displays. He's saying that we should NOT settle for a lower quality standard, any more than we should settle for audio that's "calibrated" for a Bose Wave Radio.

Thanks Robert for explaining to Adam what I assumed would be obvious, but apparently wasn't...

 

[Adam Tyner]

Thanks Robert for explaining to Adam what I assumed would be obvious, but apparently wasn't...

I completely agree with what Robert said, but I do disagree with your statement earlier that evaluations of image quality are inherently worthless if the viewer is farther than 1.5x the diagonal of the screen. YMMV.

At least, I generally sit just under 2x the diagonal with my setup, so I guess I barely squeeze into the outer range of David's range.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

not "worthless" ...just that a review from a farther distance doesn't tell you how a DVD will perform when it's projected to replicate a THX-recommended 30 degree viewing angle (1.5 screen width distance).

This 30 degree angle is the "magic" number that the industry accepts as when an image makes the transition from "TV" to what we think of as "movie proportions".

Those of us (myself included) who sit father away from our smaller TVs than this will get a marvelous picture. But our viewing context should not be the rule by which transfers are judged. That requires a 30 degree viewing angle.

How each of us choose to watch DVDs in our own homes is fine. But there should be objective standards by which our discs are QC'd and image quality is critically evaluated. I'm suggesting that DVDs should be evaluated in the context of what they are designed to record...MOVIES. And *movies* are viewed with at least a 30 degree angle of viewing in a THX-approved theater (yes...the one place where IMO the "THX" standard actually means something ).

 

[Dave H]

I have a 61" RPTV. The EE is clearly visible in TPM. (Besides that, I think it has a nice transfer.) I don't find it horrible, but that is just my tolerance. I don't keep my eyes glued to it the entire time - there are things in the picture to look at than just the edges of people, etc. Phantom Menace has some very rich black and whites with great colors and shadows. However, I strongly agree, EE should not be added. Period.

 

[TonyD]

ok i just watched the "superbit" punch drunk love.
and guess what. i see EE.

not as pronounced as some other titles but very easy to see on the end titles and the front titles.

i dont remember if i saw any on other SB dvd's, but it is on this one.

 

[Charles J P]

I think ringing on white text on a black background is usually the result of something in the hardware chain (TV's SVM, etc.). If you have a DVD rom, put the disc in there, I bet you cant see any ringing on the credits from even an inch away.

TPM edge enhancement is another story though.

 

[Aaron Cohen]

Fifth Elment Superbit's got some EE Tony. Punch Drunk Love is a Superbit?

I've got a quick question though. Is excessive block video noise due to a low bit rate? I picked up "The 6th Man" dvd and it's got a lot of block noise. The video file size is about 4 gigs. I was surprised the disc is anamorphic widescreen. As this is not a high profile release and only cost me 6 bucks I didn't expect great things. But really, can't they just ramp the bit rate for the roof for video only releases like this to avoid block noise? I'm assuming this is on a single-layer disc though.... Are dual-layer discs much more expensive to produce or something? I was thinking not.

All dvd's should have the bit-rate of a Superbit disc methinks. I would gladly pay a few extra bucks for all dvd's to come in 2-disc sets, one movie only with a high bit rate and the other with the extras on it. I'm sure discount stores would offer them for the same price as dvd's are now anyway. It would be pretty neat if all dvd's started coming in 2 discs sets if there were any extras at all other than just a trailer or a commentary or such.

Ah well. Other than the block noise on this transfer I was pretty impressed I guess. Virtually EE free from what I could tell!

 

[Jeff Kleist]

I think ringing on white text on a black background is usually the result of something in the hardware chain

That's common with RPTVs, I know that much

As for the EE on Punch Drunk Love, it's been observed that the Sony encoder doesn't do it to 1.85:1 films, but does it to all 2.35:1 films. A bunch of this is because of the hard edge of the letterbox. One of the major things in MPEG is hard/soft edges, and there's no getting around that. Scope films ARE harder to compress, which is why you get the high-pass filtering that can result in halos

 

[TonyD]

yes punch is a superbit deluxe i think. much like the panic room and adaptation.
only a very small superbit logo on the back of the case. just a note that the EE on this was barely noticable, but there.

 

[Cees Alons]

Doug,

While interesting, discussing photographic reproduction in magazines is something else entirely.

Of course it is something else (but not entirely).
I used that comparison only to underline that (much to my surprise) even among professional people the perception of "good image quality" will differ a lot.


David,

Oh yes, I think we mainly agree. Your remark that less is better in the case of applying EE is very to the point. Less EE will eliminate those artifacts and generally give the picture a more film-like quality. A bit (too) soft is less irritating to the eye than a bit too pseudo-sharp.

However I slightly disagree with you (I think) when you say it will be easy to solve. I believe the whole problem to be more complicated for one reason or another.

But we need to get rid of extensive EE-artifacts, that's for sure!

Cees

 

[Joshua_Y]

Ya know...I still dont get all this EE stuff...cause I see it in videotapes too...not just DVD...hell in regular cable I see it...and accept it...

 

[Michael Reuben]

still dont get all this EE stuff...cause I see it in videotapes too...not just DVD...hell in regular cable I see it...

You just summed up the problem. Tape and cable both have lower resolution than DVD, and EE is used to trick the eye into the illusion that the image is sharper than it really is. David's point, simply, is that such trickery isn't needed on DVD and actually detracts from the experience (at least for some). It's all detriment and no benefit.

M.

 

[Charles J P]

As for the EE on Punch Drunk Love, it's been observed that the Sony encoder doesn't do it to 1.85:1 films, but does it to all 2.35:1 films. A bunch of this is because of the hard edge of the letterbox. One of the major things in MPEG is hard/soft edges, and there's no getting around that. Scope films ARE harder to compress, which is why you get the high-pass filtering that can result in halos

That is very interesting Jeff, and I have really noticed it without knowing it. You see, I actually get a little EE around the letterbox bars of all of my wider-than-1.85:1 DVDs on my sony PJ. I didnt know what was causing it.

 

[Eric F]

Just a note- AOTC is going to be on HBO-HD tommorow night (and all this month). Hopefully it will be OAR, but I'm not expecting it...

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Scope films ARE harder to compress, which is why you get the high-pass filtering that can result in halos

You're right that we tend to seem more EE in Sony's 2.35:1 16x9 transfers than in their "full frame" 1.85:1 16x9 transfers...but the reasons for this may be different than you conclude.

A scope film is actually *easier* (however mildly) to compress than a 1.78:1 image in a 16x9 frame because of the static-picture area taken up by the letterboxing bars preserving 2.35:1 OAR.

Images (of all aspect ratios) are *low pass* filtered prior to compression to remove hi-frequency detail which might put a strain on the encoder. Often, after (too much) filtering has been applied, technicians try to compensate by adding a bit of HF boost (EE) which exagerates HF transitions and can result in ringing/haloing.

In anycase...regarding the difference in visible EE between Sony's 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 16x9 transfers...

The best-yet explaination why we're seeing EE in Sony's 2.35:1 transfers (folks...it's in their 1.85 transfers too...just not as bad. Take a look at their bran-new "Beautiful Thing" DVD if you want to see it) is that becuase 2.35:1 have reduced vertical resoluiton in the vertical domain due to the 2.35 letterboxing, the technicians/equipment add a little EE to "boost detail" to "compensate" for the lower-resolution image.

It's not an inherent part of 2.35:1 DVD mastering per-se (even if Sony's equipment is adding it without anyone intending...that's poor equipment design...not a principle of compressing a 2.35:1 image and many other stuidios have reference 2.35:1 16x9 transfers which demonstrate this).

 

[Aaron Cohen]

Charles brings up something interesting. On evrey 2.35 transfer I have (it may be on 1.85 transfers as well with the overscan taking care of it) near the top of the picture area there is a line there. It is also at the bottom of the picture area. It is very close to the letterbox. I own 400+ dvd's, many of which are 2.35 and have yet to find one that doesn't have this. It's not noticeable immediately, you have to be looking for it and many times up close but it is there. I brought it up a bit ago here about the Lord Of the Rings dvd (I had watched that many times and started noticing the line) and I believe the resolution that was reached was that it was somewhat of a compression artifact used to make it easier for there to be black bars because it uses up a lot of bits and is hard to go from picture to black.

I'm just typing from memory here and may be very, very wrong, but David, do you know what it is I am talking about? I popped in Die Hard 3 last night after hearing about the EE on it to check that out and noticed that this line was more noticeable than most other discs. It's at the top and bottom.

Some discs I have have a faint blue line along the edge of the letterboxing....

What is this stuff? Is it some sort of EE on the letterboxing? Is it a compression artifact or compression trick?

It is present on all monitors and televisions I have viewed the discs on.