der untergang DOWNFALL (1 Viewer)

[Jan H]

Just to add, I think the only people you are supposed to empathise with in 'Downfall' are the innocents like the poor brainwashed Goebbels kids, or the cluelessly loyal secretaries, or anyone that had a shred of care for the safety of other people. They deserved a chance to avoid being a part of that catastrophe.

BTW, of all the Nazis who deserve a special corner of hell, I hope Himmler gets the one that involves unending genital torture. The actor who played him in 'Downfall' did a superb job of bringing to disgusting life the cowardly weasel I'd read about in books. Though he was not a large presence in the film, he made my skin crawl every time he appeared.

 

[Haggai]

Kershaw's article is certainly an interesting read for anyone who's seen the movie (which he praises very highly).

 

[BrianB]

I certainly don't believe that anything on this film is supposed to help you appreciate or empathise with the Nazis.

Instead, it's to help you understand the people involved, the lengths they would go to in following their leader, and to try & maybe understand what happened in the bunker in those last few days. Yes, it attempts to portray Hitler with some depth to him, however the monster in him & his ideas is clearly portrayed & made clear.

I just finished watching it & I cannot see anything in that film that would make one 'appreciate' the Nazis. I found it utterly riveting.

 

[Jan H]

I have Roper's book and it is the gold standard on this subject, even today. Bt it doesn't include much of the actual dialogue of Hitler and his cronies and generals. Hence Kershaw's use of the phrase, 'in essence.' Kershaw's books are very good, too. Haven't heard of Joachimsthaler's book. Will check it out, if there's an English translation. Thanks!

 

[Haggai]

Right, the personal and emotional context of the events in there is where the movie is plowing new ground, as it were. I guess that was essentially what you were getting at, but I was just being picky about your choice of the word "events."

 

[Kain_C]

I've always wondered what happened to Hitler's remains. There is a piece of a skull (and jawbone, I think) being held in a cardboard box in Moscow that most likely is his.

 

[Jan H]

I think that is an urban legend, but if there is proof, I'd love to hear about it. Any books anywhere about this?

 

[Edward Schatz]

Wikipedia contends the jaw fragments are indeed that of Hitler's.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Want to write a little more today on
my feelings about this film.

There's another GREAT moment at the very
beginning of the film I'd like to talk about.

I'll put up a spoiler so not to ruin it.


There is a moment at the very beginning of the
film that really hit home as to why DOWNFALL
works so well at giving a different view of
Hitler.

A group of women are brought into the night
to a small house in the middle of the woods
to meet Hitler. As they are brought into a
small room you can see how nervous they are.

As a viewer, I was nervous too. As the door
to Hitler's office opens I felt very uneasy
about what was to walk through that door. The
filmmaker makes a point about making Hitler's
entrance a delayed and uneasy entry -- and it works.

Moments later we see a very kind Hitler
telling the young Traudl Junge not to be
nervous as he probably is prone to making
more mistakes than her.

It's a moment I was not ready for. It showed
a very different side of an individual we have
always known to be a monster.


I am certainly not trying to add any sympathy
towards Hitler and what he was, but as I have
stated before, the fact that this film humanizes
him only makes it more believable to watch.

 

[Jordan_E]

Recently, I have been very jaded toward movies. I haven't been really impressed in a long time, but DOWNFALL kept me completely spellbound! Scenes such as the fate of the girl with the braids
made me utter 'whoa' more than a few times. Stellar! This went from a rental to a must buy immediately.

 

[Lars Vermundsberget]

My only comment:

Huh?

 

[SteveJKo]

Ronald, that opening scene blew me away as well. I remember Christopher Lee once talked about his first time playing Dracula. He said that what worked in "Horror Of Dracula" was his introduction, because it played against peoples preconceived notions of him showing up with dripping bloody fangs (that would come later). Instead, after standing in the shadows for a pregnant pause, he comes into the light and we see a charming, indeed handsome, 30 something year old man. Like that introduction to Lee's Dracula, Hitler comes out of his office after a pause, just enough time to make us a bit nervous. But when we see him he's behaving like any busy business man, even trying to charm (dare I say "flirt with") all the potential secretaries, and they respond in kind. To me the scene showed how easy it can be for the innocent to be seduced by evil.

 

[Rutgar]

Exactly. Hitler didn't become the master of the German people by being a monster. He was afterall, human. Which is why this film works so well. We see Hitler, the person.

There's a quote that goes: "It's hard to recognize the Devil, when he's putting his hand on your shoulder." I want to say it was Albert Speer that said this in his memiors, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Bryant Trew]

I'm saying that I don't really care to spend 2.5hrs learning about Hitler's downfall. I mean what is the point? We know he was a psychopath, we know he killed millions - so what else is to be gained from watching such a long film? Empathy, education and/or entertainment? I can see great acting in many other films, and this guy proves his worth in the first hour.

I didn't need to spend another 1.5hrs to weigh up the quality of the performances (they were great). I don't care to know exactly how Hitler "fell apart" (frankly 2.5hrs would have been too long for this monster). And I certainly have no sympathy for his secretary's account of the story. I guess overall I would appreciate this more as a documentary on the History Channel.

PS: Did the movie cover any of his motivations for his madness, or was the remainder purely on his final days?

 

[Jan H]

I really shouldn't address the ravings of one who evidently hasn't seen the whole movie, but I'm in a charitable mood, and, more importantly, I'm bored. So here goes...

The subject matter of this film is not for everyone. No matter how much I rave about this film, my girlfriend will never see it. But what makes 'Downfall' a singular achievement is the filmmakers' absolute commitment to getting everything right from a historical perspective. And because it is so well-cast and well-acted, it blows away any documentary on the Third Reich I've ever seen, and I've seen damn near every one available. Any lover of film, particularly of historical films, should view this movie.

And no, the movie doesn't 'cover' Hitler's motivation (though that definitely seeps through Ganz's performance), but then again, that is not its purpose.

Why not give the whole film a shot?

 

[Jace_A]

What is the point of any film? Hell, I'm not sure what the point of your posts are. If time is such a precious commodity to you, why are you here posting about a film you have no interst in seeing? That's 10 minutes you've invested, at least.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Sort of like the first time we meet Hannibal Lector
in Silence of the Lambs.

A long, nervous walk down the prison hallway till
we come to the cell inhabited by a seemingly gentle
smiling man.

 

[Rutgar]

If nothing else, it's a compeling story. You might as well ask what's the point of watching ANY movie.

 

[JonZ]

"But when we see him he's behaving like any busy business man, even trying to charm (dare I say "flirt with") all the potential secretaries, and they respond in kind. To me the scene showed how easy it can be for the innocent to be seduced by evil."

He was acting kindly, almost fatherly to the women who were younger than him. He was softspoken and sweet to them.

Now remember the looks of shock on their faces when theyre standing in the next room hearing hear Hitler screaming at his officers at the top of his lungs how hes been betrayed, how his army has let him down or worse how his own officers and countrymen deserve to die.But still he had people who wouldnt leave him.

Hitler was a expert at manipulation.

 

[BrianB]

A google search shows it accredited to Speer, but with no definitive reference. I like it though!