Deep Space Nine: For the Fans (1 Viewer)

[Chris Roberts]

This is funny because I just netflixed Season 1, Disc 1 for DS9 before seeing this thread. I don't really consider myself a Trek fan though. I watched them when they were on and grew up watching the OS reruns, but DS9 is the only Trek show I really enjoyed as a whole. I've since moved on to other sci-fi shows I enjoy a lot more and other than a random episode on TV here and there have no intent to ever revisit TNG or VOY or even the OS.

DS9's early seasons had some clunker episodes and its fair share of technobull, but as has been mentioned above they also added in a lot of interesting elements with the Bajorans and prophecies and such.

Actually I think its the non-Starfleet alien characters that made the show more interesting for me than a typical Trek show where all the characters endeavor to be exactly the same Starfleet ideal. Even on Voyager the Maquis were simply conforming to Starfleet standards more and more as the show went on. Chakotay seemed no different than any other First Officer by the end, for example.

I liked the relationships between the characters as well. On TNG when you see people in Ten-Forward eating I always got the feeling they were more like coworkers having lunch together then friends. Whereas O'Brien and Bashir clearly became good friends who hung out together. Keiko and O'Brien's rocky relationship at times. Quark and Odo's sort of friendly rivalry (for lack of a better way to put it) was great. Garak and Bashir's odd relationship. The list goes on.

They managed to have a kid on the show without making him another Wesley Crusher, which was the fear of many at first. Jake ended up showing us that humans still create stuff rather than always listening to old music, re-enacting old plays or novels, etc. I seriously wondered before him if man-made art was dead in the Trek universe. Not just that but Sisko's father owning a restaurant on Earth was probably the first glimpse of non-Starfleet Earth life I recall seeing.

Another interesting thing about DS9 is it almost glorifies Kira and other Bajorans for being "terrorists" that fought the occupation of their homeland by the Cardassians who just wanted its resources. A theme that is more relevant to Americans today than when the show was made.

Plus the Dominion War was awesome because it wasn't just a two-parter episode and had a lot of twists and turns along the way.

 

[Gary Seven]

I think the one odd proof that this show was great is that no one has shit on this thread yet.

LOL!!!
Out of mere respect for fellow members and their opinion. I find most of these statements amusing.

 

[Sean Bryan]

....and dedicate it to the memory of Michael Piller.

Wow. I don't know how, but somehow I missed the news that Michael Piller died. And it has been over a year now.
Seeing as how I watch The Dead Zone, I'm even more surprised I missed this news.
He did some great work.

 

[Nick Martin]

LOL!!!
Out of mere respect for fellow members and their opinion. I find most of these statements amusing.

If that was your way of saying you would like to threadcrap but respect HTF enough not to, good. One question though - why read a thread about a show you don't like?

 

[Chris Roberts]

like?

I don't know if this is his reason, but an open-minded person would read it even if they don't expect to agree with it. I read the Voyager fan thread to see what other people like about it. It may not change my opinion, but food for thought is still tasty.

 

[Gary Seven]

I don't know if this is his reason, but an open-minded person would read it even if they don't expect to agree with it. I read the Voyager fan thread to see what other people like about it. It may not change my opinion, but food for thought is still tasty.

Yes... exactly.
I don't consider it a threadcrap to respond to an illogical piece of reasoning regarding the quality of a show based on the fact that since no one had "shit" on a thread, as so eloquently put, that therefore it must be a hit show.
I admittedly enjoyed a handful of episodes and was curious to see if I might read reasons by fans of the show as to why they liked it. Truth to tell, nothing new.
This is not THE Chris Roberts, creator of Wing Commander, is it?

 

[Chris Roberts]

This is not THE Chris Roberts, creator of Wing Commander, is it?

Never even played the game. Sorry. :frowning:

 

[Nick Martin]

I don't consider it a threadcrap to respond to an illogical piece of reasoning regarding the quality of a show based on the fact that since no one had "shit" on a thread, as so eloquently put, that therefore it must be a hit show.

My response was based on the 'most of these statements' remark, which I thought meant the majority of the reasons people like the show is laughable. I misunderstood.

 

[Hanson]

I don't consider it a threadcrap to respond to an illogical piece of reasoning regarding the quality of a show based on the fact that since no one had "shit" on a thread, as so eloquently put, that therefore it must be a hit show.

There is definitely a direct inverse correlation of the quality of a show or a movie and the amount of negative posts in the thread. This is not "illogical" as you state, but thanks for being so "respectful".

BTW, I never said it was a hit show. It definitely wasn't, and if it weren't for the fact that it was syndicated and Paramount was dedicated to having it hit the magic seven season number, it would have been cancelled somewhere around season 4, 5, or 6.

Thanks for the threadcrap!

 

[Gary Seven]

BTW, I never said it was a hit show. It definitely wasn't...

Forgive me... great. My point is this forum is respectful of threads and thus will not enter controversy over opinion. Thus, the lack of controversy here is not indicative of quality. However, other forums, particularly Star Trek ones, would not hesitate to debate over the pros and cons of each series ad nauseum.

That is all I will say here. Long live IDIC. Carry on.

 

[Sam Favate]

Wow. I don't know how, but somehow I missed the news that Michael Piller died. And it has been over a year now.
He did some great work.

He did indeed. His seasons in charge of TNG were the best that show ever was (season 3, and season 4 before Jeri Taylor) and he helped create the premise for DS9. While DS9 flourished under the leadership of Ira Steven Behr, Piller deserves a lot of credit too.
Every once in a while in Trek's history, someone has come along who helped transform it and make it better. Gene Coon did it, Harve Bennett did it, and Michael Piller did it.

 

[Chris]

I can understand people not liking anything, or people who like anything. Hell, different tastes. I hate any ice cream with nuts in it. My wife loves it. Just different tastes.

Back to the show.

You know, the thing that really gets me is how relevent DS9 seems to be years later, far more so then almost any other show. I watch DS9, and the way they fleshed out the storyline seems to have a lot more impact with me now then it did even when it was original.

Storylines about the horrors of war (I'm thinking episodes in which Jake/Bashir were trapped in a hospital tending the wounded; or Nog coming back missing a leg and dealing with psychological trauma).

This was the trek that dealt with all of those issues. In say, TNG, you had Wolf 369, and then, two episodes later, everyone was back to exploring and things were right in the world.

In DS9, friends they knew died or were killed in those events and they struggled with it. By the time we hit Season 2, you had some absolutely great episodes that explored the impact of war and living under oppression that had occurred in a society.

The second season storyline regarding "The Circle" was, I thought, original thought. Here was a group of people on Bajor who were sick of being oppressed. And they could not see any difference between being oppressed by Cardassians vs. being "helped" by the Federation. They just wanted to be left alone.

At the time, I thought it was very interesting storycraft, a different take on how people might view the federation, and how xenophobia might form into a society. But you look at those episodes now, and they take on a strangely different meaning in the way world events happen.

Sanctuary, also in the same season, was a very Israeli-Palestinian type episode; a wayward people who thousands of years ago called bajor their home tried to come home.. only to be rejected and forced to move on.

Episodes surrounding the maquis gave them meaning.. why were they doing what they were doing. They weren't all "starfleet traitors" most of them were simple farmers and the former oppressed. You could sympathize with them.

I thought the show improved every season it was on, but I agree with some assessments that Season 2 was just a breakthrough season of what was going to happen in the future. It took Trek in a whole knew direction. It took concepts that were glanced over in the other series and focused on them and thought about their longterm impact. There were very few "resets" in the show. Things that happened in episode X were remembered in Episode Y, and sometimes with terrible consequences.

The later episodes of DS9 have such a different feel now that watching them now gives them a whole new context to evaluate them with.

When I go back and watch TNG, I feel like I'm watching a good scifi show that is occassionally great. DS9 is one of those shows, like current BSG, that manages to tell a story about our society represented in SciFi. It takes the larger issues that everyone deals with and frames them in a different way so they have meaning that can be changed and thought of by the audience.

Watching a show in which a space-alien baby tries to mate with the ship (Voy, TNG) may be fun, but the meaning doesn't change because of the watcher.

Watching an episode in which people fight for xenophobic possession of their homeland 8 years ago can be seen today and you feel it differently now then you did then.

To me, that's part of the artistry of DS9, that it's shows have such base themes so well played that we can relate them to real world events and it makes us think about the show being presented differently.

I enjoyed DS9 when it was on the air. Years later, I really love what this show did, all the way through.

 

[Yee-Ming]

Very well put Chris.

I just wish I had more time and could re-watch DS9 more often. But between work, family and that much new great TV (BSG in particular), doesn't leave much time -- heck, in watching DS9 for the first time on DVD, I took forever in getting through S1 to S3, and it was only when I had a month between jobs that I got through S4 to S7.

 

[David Williams]

I don't know what I could say about DS9 that hasn't already been said in this thread or others. As someone who grew up loving TNG (ages 11-18), DS9 is truly Trek's finest hour. As I said in another thread, there really isn't a character that hasn't grown or changed extensively since the pilot. Julian Bashir and Kira Nerys are the best examples of that remarkable growth.
No matter what the future brings for Trek, I find it doubtful that they will ever be able to top the brilliance of episodes like Far Beyond the Stars or The Visitor.

 

[Joseph Bolus]

I can't really add much to what has aleady been stated here.
To me, DS9 *became* what I thought of as "Star Trek" -- even surpasing TOS, which I grew up with -- and it really spoiled me to the point that I couldn't really fully enjoy the much more generic Voyager or Enterprise series.
Indeed, when it came to Voyager, I have to admit that I stopped viewing it shortly after DS9 left the air. (A few years ago I stumbled onto a complete set of the series at a used DVD shop and finally viewed the last four seasons. There were some very good episodes scattered around in there ... but the series was wildy inconsistent. And it tried to be an anthology show when it should have been the ultimate linear Star Trek series.) As others have stated in this thread, when DS9 ended it left me wanting more ... but the relatively pale series that followed it in the Trek franchise were not up to the task of fulfilling that need.
In retrospect, the linear, and ultimately definitive, storytelling that we all grew to love in DS9 contributed to the death of the non-definitive anthology Trek series. (And I realize that Enterprise was a mostly linear show in its third season; and there was even some character development during that year, but the show somehow remained oddly non-definitive.)
And the really ironic fact here is that Paramount has yet to figure out that DS9 is currently considered by many to be the crown jewel of their post-TOS TV series franchises!

 

[Sam Favate]

It was funny - when Voyager premiered, the UPN affiliate in New York (actually Secaucus, NJ) decided it would be a brilliant move to put it opposite DS9, which was syndicated and aired on Monday nights at 8. So for the winter and spring of 1995, DS9 and Voyager were on opposite one another.

So in the one of the largest TV markets in the country, which reached at that time about 10% of the country's population, programmers thought it was a good idea to split the Star Trek audience down the middle. Paramount couldn't have been happy, and fans certainly weren't. But letters to the stations did nothing.

I used to watch DS9 and tape Voyager, although Voyager was an unknown entity as yet, so it was a hard decision. Voyaer was the new kid on the block, with all the excitement that comes with that. However, in short order, I realized I made the right choice in "sticking by" DS9. Eventually, I thought "How could I have even thought otherwise?!?"

But yeah, those programming directors... real geniuses.

 

[JonZ]

I remember that. Voyager was repeated on another day and thats when I used to watch it.

I always had a soft spot of DS9's third season.

 

[Nick Martin]

If it weren't for several people here not having the time to revisit, or are currently in the middle of revisiting the series on their own, I'd say a viewing challenge-type discussion thread is in order, starting from the beginning.

 

[Paul_Sjordal]

Wow, this thread is a bit of an eye-opener for me.

Is DS9 really that well received among Star Trek fans now? I remember when even mentioning DS9 could start flame wars, with DS9 fans generally outnumbered.

I never liked the original series. That's partly because I didn't encounter it until much later when I was much older (I grew up overseas), and it simply didn't hold up well compared to what else was on TV at the time that I encountered it.

Then TNG came on the air. Everything Trekkies told me about TOS seemed to be true about TNG, and despite the command staff's propensity for holding endless interminable meetings, I really liked the show and I watched it a lot (which is saying something because I don't watch all that much TV). The TNG episodes I liked the most were the ones that involved ugly politics, particularly the Klingon episodes: backstabbing, machinations, flawed people doing ugly things to each other, in other words people acting like people instead of idealized near-utopian characters.

DS9 was a bit rough in the first season, but it had all the things I loved about the "ugly politics" episodes of TNG, but in much greater quantity. It didn't take long for me to become a rabid fan. I hadn't realized how annoying many of the Star Trek conventions were (episodic, the characters not flawed enough, and a boringly obvious separation between good and evil that is better off in children's stories) until I saw a Star Trek series without them (or at least less of them).

The captains tell you a lot about a Star Trek series. Kirk had spaz attacks and slept with alien ladies. Piccard held endless meetings. Janeway divided herself between meetings and posturing. Sisko simply barged in, kicked ass, went home, cooked a meal for his (regular!) girlfriend, then sat back and started feeling guilty about whatever people or regulations he had to run over to get things done.

The Star Trek franchise started going downhill after DS9, and the fans are at least partly to blame. So many fans bitched and moaned about how DS9 was bad because it was different from the Star Trek formula, so of course the people responsible for the franchise went right back to the formula with Voyager. Ugh.

 

[JonZ]

Which is very true because I remember at the time people in general,were still complaining about DS9. I remember reading in a article with I think it was Berman saying they wanted to get back to the trek in Trek and go back to exploration and the things that made the first 2 shows so great.
Throwing them in another quadrant meant exploring new aliens and systems. A big problem with Voyager IMHO was that those aliens just werent very interesting. Voyager couldnt touch the amazing performances characters stories and dialogue of DS9
Ive been watching DS9 constantly all week(14 hours today)Im coming to the end of S2 and Im loving it. The character intereaction is wonderful( especially between Quark,Odo and Garek). While Brooks was awkward in the first few episodes I think he really made the character his own quickly. Im also reminded of how entertaining alot of Sisko manuerisms are. His impassiveness is sometimes so fun to watch.A example was 3 Federation delegates who came to the station. They show up in Ops and Sisko sees them and turns around pretending not to see them. They call his name and he turns to greet them with a big smile on his face.
The sparring between Quark and Odo has made me laugh out loud quite a few times. The Ferengi episodes are hysterical.
Ive watched the occasion episodes here and there but havent watched a run of the show in a long time,so Im really enjoying it.