Coppola/Zoetrope version of Napoleon? (1 Viewer)

[goalieboy82]

got for christmas last year a poster for the 2000 showing in london. i did in 2010 get an old vhs of the coppola score of napoleon as a christmas gift.
also anything about the showing in london this november. i know i wont be able to go there but hope there would be a showing on the east coast sometime (cost a lot of money to get to london).

 

[owen35]

This film has popped on my radar after discovering the original LA poster amongst my archives. Does anyone know how the Cinematheque Francaise restoration is progressing? So eager to see it again, especially with the Coppola score, where I maintain a nostalgic fondness for.

 

[dana martin]

if my memory serves me correctly, there is possibly one person on this site who probably has a very definitive answer RAH, mentioned it in one of his threads, cant remember which one, but the fact that he mentioned it put the possible chance of an actual release different than Coppola possible, which is what I really want to see Abel Gance's Napoléon, as close to his original vision as possible.

no disrespect, but not someone else filtered version

 

[Angelo Colombus]

I wonder how different the upcoming release will be to the 2016 BFI Blu-ray that i have on my shelf?

 

[Robert Harris]

if my memory serves me correctly, there is possibly one person on this site who probably has a very definitive answer RAH, mentioned it in one of his threads, cant remember which one, but the fact that he mentioned it put the possible chance of an actual release different than Coppola possible, which is what I really want to see Abel Gance's Napoléon, as close to his original vision as possible.

no disrespect, but not someone else filtered version

Please explain “filtered version.”

 

[dana martin]

Please explain “filtered version.”

I understand that there are many differing versions and edit that have gone through the years, and we are never going to see the 1927 Napoléon (version définitive) at 562 mins with it's original score, or is that still a possibility? If not, then is Napoleon (version définitive as sent to the U.S at 403 mins possible. These are to my understanding are Gance's edits or so my reading through the years have stated, but I am a novice and learn more each day, if I am wrong I will gladly admit it and hope to learn more, but if the chance for either of those two cuts of the film exist then that would defiantly be unfiltered.

If the materials that are left are not complet to either of those then it should be as close as possible, would be in my opinion unfiltered, of course this is also dependent on proper frame rate for visual display, and a proper display of the final at 4.00:1, and if possible re-recording the original 1927 score to accompany the film,

Hopefully that is a more clear explanation, but I am also understanding that you cant make or wish what doesn't exist to exist, if you could; many would have already seen London after Midnight or von Stroheim's 42 reel version of Greed.

That is why I respect all the work of the archivist and preservationists do and have done. That help to not let these moments of Cinematic history fade from view.

 

[Robert Harris]

I understand that there are many differing versions and edit that have gone through the years, and we are never going to see the 1927 Napoléon (version définitive) at 562 mins with it's original score, or is that still a possibility?

It is not.

If not, then is Napoleon (version définitive as sent to the U.S at 403 mins possible.

It is not.

These are to my understanding are Gance's edits or so my reading through the years have stated, but I am a novice and learn more each day, if I am wrong I will gladly admit it and hope to learn more, but if the chance for either of those two cuts of the film exist then that would defiantly be unfiltered.

as far as we know, they do not.

If the materials that are left are not complet to either of those then it should be as close as possible, would be in my opinion unfiltered, of course this is also dependent on proper frame rate for visual display, and a proper display of the final at 4.00:1, and if possible re-recording the original 1927 score to accompany the film,

there was no original 1927 score. It was about 20-25 minutes of Honneger, plus add’l contemporary themes.

Hopefully that is a more clear explanation, but I am also understanding that you cant make or wish what doesn't exist to exist, if you could; many would have already seen London after Midnight or von Stroheim's 42 reel version of Greed.

That is why I respect all the work of the archivist and preservationists do and have done. That help to not let these moments of Cinematic history fade from view.

 

[dana martin]

It is not.


It is not.


as far as we know, they do not.

there was no original 1927 score. It was about 20-25 minutes of Honneger, plus add’l contemporary themes.

Thank you, and in one short reply, it has cleared up many mistakes in reading or worse assuming inaccurate data, that is a master class of film education. So at this point what would possibly be the fullest version of the film possible, for a comprehensive restoration?

Or is the one from 2016, from the BFI the definitive? Or is there a chance of a fuller version?

 

[Robert Harris]

Thank you, and in one short reply, it has cleared up many mistakes in reading or worse assuming inaccurate data, that is a master class of film education. So at this point what would possibly be the fullest version of the film possible, for a comprehensive restoration?

Or is the one from 2016, from the BFI the definitive? Or is there a chance of a fuller version?

All roads lead to Kevin Brownlow, and his reconstructions going back to the ‘60s.

The problem is that there were different cuts going back to 1927, as released in France - the Opera and Apollo - two different negatives.

Concurrently, the film was released in the UK, Berlin, at al.

A long lavender was delivered to M-G-M in 1927, from which they created their 75 minute cut. It does not survive.

When KB began his work, there was no way of differentiating the versions, hence combined footage in a previously non-existing form, which was all that was possible. As additional footage was added, there was no means of tracking versions. We added a number of sequences from what we perceived to be the original 1928 M-G-M version, which has turned out not to be, along with footage found in the 1971 version.

What he achieved is a miracle.

There’s a start for you.

And a title card.

 

[owen35]

I posted this in another thread, but if you are curious about the various versions, etc. of Napoleon, go here: https://www.cinematheque.fr/article/662.html. It is a lengthy article that contains this eye-popping sentence: "In all, 22 versions of the film have currently been identified, without including the versions created in the Central European countries and Russia (these are under study) and numerous distributor mutilations."

There's also this video from the SF Film Festival in 2016 where George Mourier goes into deep discussion on the various restorations of the Napoleon. https://www.cinematheque.fr/video/1438.html

Here's a French TV doc on the restoration. I don't speak French, but there is a lot of great footage:

 

[Mark Zimmer]

Thanks for the link to that article about the versions and the cataloguing; the librarian in me finds that kind of stuff fascinating.

The BFI set is quite wonderful and worth getting if you are region-free. I hope the Cinematheque will eventually release their work---it'd be nice to have reconstructions of both the Apollo and Opera versions, to the extent that's even possible. It sounds like they have a mountain of material to work with.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

I posted this in another thread, but if you are curious about the various versions, etc. of Napoleon, go here: https://www.cinematheque.fr/article/662.html. It is a lengthy article that contains this eye-popping sentence: "In all, 22 versions of the film have currently been identified, without including the versions created in the Central European countries and Russia (these are under study) and numerous distributor mutilations."

There's also this video from the SF Film Festival in 2016 where George Mourier goes into deep discussion on the various restorations of the Napoleon. https://www.cinematheque.fr/video/1438.html

Here's a French TV doc on the restoration. I don't speak French, but there is a lot of great footage:

My French is a little rusty, but in a word: WOW! The work being done here is nothing short of heroic, and needs to be seen by any studio referring to a reharvest as a "restoration". They really don't know what a true restoration entails.

 

[dana martin]

I posted this in another thread, but if you are curious about the various versions, etc. of Napoleon, go here: https://www.cinematheque.fr/article/662.html. It is a lengthy article that contains this eye-popping sentence: "In all, 22 versions of the film have currently been identified, without including the versions created in the Central European countries and Russia (these are under study) and numerous distributor mutilations."

There's also this video from the SF Film Festival in 2016 where George Mourier goes into deep discussion on the various restorations of the Napoleon. https://www.cinematheque.fr/video/1438.html

Here's a French TV doc on the restoration. I don't speak French, but there is a lot of great footage:

the linked article, what an outstanding read

 

[Robert Harris]

It’s a very complex situation. Been dealing with it for 45 years.

 

[PMF]

It’s a very complex situation. Been dealing with it for 45 years.

There’s nothing complex at all; just concede to the French that Jerry Lewis is a genius and voila, the withheld reels shall then be yours.

 

[Dennis Gallagher]

Somewhat off topic here: has anyone here been able to successfully replicate the impact of the triptych experience at home? It's obviously disconcerting to watch the image get smaller when the Polyvision sequences begin. (FWIW - I've been crazy enough to consider adding temporary panels to my projector screen to allow the image to expand during this sequence. Unfortunately my present projector doesn't have a setting to allow quick and seamless changes to the image size and I'm not inclined to buy some kind of external box which might help for this single instance. Thoughts?)

 

[owen35]

Somewhat off topic here: has anyone here been able to successfully replicate the impact of the triptych experience at home? It's obviously disconcerting to watch the image get smaller when the Polyvision sequences begin. (FWIW - I've been crazy enough to consider adding temporary panels to my projector screen to allow the image to expand during this sequence. Unfortunately my present projector doesn't have a setting to allow quick and seamless changes to the image size and I'm not inclined to buy some kind of external box which might help for this single instance. Thoughts?)

If memory serves, I believe the BFI blu-ray has each of the triptych panels as its own video stream. In theory, you could setup three screens and replicate the experience. But that would be a tough purchase to explain to one's wife. ;-)

 

[Dennis Gallagher]

If memory serves, I believe the BFI blu-ray has each of the triptych panels as its own video stream. In theory, you could setup three screens and replicate the experience. But that would be a tough purchase to explain to one's wife. ;-)

No wife - but I'm not one with the level of obsession of a John Harvey! (R.I.P. and many thanks for all that his obsession brought us!)

 

[Mark Zimmer]

If memory serves, I believe the BFI blu-ray has each of the triptych panels as its own video stream. In theory, you could setup three screens and replicate the experience. But that would be a tough purchase to explain to one's wife. ;-)

That is correct. There are 3 discs in the BFI set, each of which has an optional triptych panel on it, so with 3 blu-ray players and 3 TVs you can recreate the full experience. I could potentially do it, but it would mean lugging several pieces of equipment around and I've never felt compelled to go that far.

 

[Dennis Gallagher]

That is correct. There are 3 discs in the BFI set, each of which has an optional triptych panel on it, so with 3 blu-ray players and 3 TVs you can recreate the full experience. I could potentially do it, but it would mean lugging several pieces of equipment around and I've never felt compelled to go that far.

Not quite. The triptych Polyvision sequence is in Act IV on the third disc of the set (from about 26 minutes on). The different panels are included as playback options on this third disc; as such one would need three copies of the movie to play back the different panels. (The three discs in the set are Act I on disc 1, Acts 2 and 3 on disc 2 and Act 4 on disc 3. Note that this set is Region B and as such requires a region B player or some way to remove the region coding.)