College Police group get taser happy on annoying Florida student (1 Viewer)

[Brian Perry]

"Violence" is a subjective term. Some might say putting someone in a chicken wing position is violent. Others might say the use of a nightstick is acceptable (which is what my dad used to use before tasers were invented).

I think the bottom line is that the police are entitled to use escalating force to achieve compliance. In this case, the student was verbally warned to stop, then had the mic turned off, then was grabbed in an attempt to remove him, then was warned that if he didn't yield, the taser was coming. I see nothing wrong with how the police acted.

It doesn't necessarily have to do with whether someone is a threat to others. Let's say I am pulled over for speeding and the officer has reason to ask me to step out of the car. If I refuse, I assume the officer can try to physically pull me out. If I continue to resist, shouldn't he have the right to escalate the force?

 

[KurtEP]

Well, change the circumstances a bit, what about this case:

http://www.tribune-chronicle.com/New...rticleID=22761

And video:

 

[Paul Padilla]

I don't think anyone is denying that abuse takes place and that case does look very bad. There is certainly no lack of examples of police going too far and even pure stupidity. A small girl was killed by a stray bullet just a few weeks ago when an officer tried to shoot a snake in a birdhouse near a lake. But expanding comparisons like this is a bad road to travel.

One problem is negative reinforcement nature of the media. We never hear of the hundreds of Taser uses that were appropriate and necessary.

 

[Steve Ridges]

There don't appear to be as many details about this situation but from what I've read, she kicked out the window of the patrol car and was resisting being transfered to another. Once again, I feel she got what she deserved. It wouldn't have happened if she had sat peacefully in the car.

I would never be a police officer. They have a crappy job. Everyone hates them until they are in need and then they better save the day or else. People expect them to be perfect and never show any emotion and you think that anyone who fails in ether respect just shouldn't be a cop.

It almost seems like some of you are in favor or being dicks to the cops. Mouthing off, being defiant, showing an attitude, and being disrespectful to people who put there life on the line for you should have a consequence. People know that doing that to some average person would get them punched out but they feel they are immune from cops and can push them as much as they want and heaven forbid they react because then they get fired or sued. This is total BS. I sure as hell would tase someone for kicking out the window of my car.

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with tasing someone. Yeah, it hurts like hell for 10 min but then your fine. It's no different twisting someones arm or or any other way of causing pain to get someone to comply and before you bring it up, people with heart conditions shouldn't be putting themselves in a position to be tased anyway.

I've NEVER had a problem with a cop in my life and the reason why is that not only am I respectful towards them, I'm EXTRA respectful... yes sir, no sir, I apologize sir. Thanks for bring that to my attention. Sorry I bothered you sir. Have a good day etc.

Why ANYONE would not show that kind of respect for someone willing to die to protect them is beyond me. I also don't understand why anyone would defend those people.

 

[ChristopherDAC]

Like the Miami police, who are now toting around AR-15s? Tell me that increases the safety of anybody in Miami except the cops themselves. There's a simple teleological issue here. If policemen are supposed to protect the public safety, then they need to refrain from employing violence until violence has been offered — aside from the problem of harming bystanders, miscreants are part of the public too. If the purpose of the police is to enforce the laws, they need to remain within their legally constituted authority. If their purpose is to maintain the public peace, they need to follow the ordinary rules of civilized conduct. By and large they don't behave as they ought*, and that is precisely because so many people are willing to concede them the right, every time, simply because they are in authority. Witness the memorial in Haymarket Square. It is the duty of a free man, rather, to be jealous of his freedom, and keep power in restraint. (And whoever made "disrupting a public meeting" a misdemeanor had his head where the sun doesn't shine.) *Wednesday morning, I was out for a walk, as is common in my neighbourhood. I happened to pass a motorcycle policeman who had, I inferred, pulled a woman over for speeding in a school zone. I gave him "Good morning, Officer" as I am accustomed to do, and went on my way. (If I reserve the right to be rude to anybody, it is only because I am habitually polite.) He left off talking to the lady in the car, and glared at me suspiciously until I was some way down the block. I have no idea what evils he expected from a polite, conservatively-dressed young man in a quiet neighbourhood, but I found it quite unsettling. By contrast, the fellow in "gangsta chic" down at the end of the block, washing his car, was downright friendly.

 

[KurtEP]

The thing is, before video like this came around, stuff like this could go on for years and no one other than the victim would know about it. You can see that some people are willing to say "she deserved it" even with video. If it's just your word against theirs, no one will believe you. People give the police a lot of deference, and they generally should most of the time IMHO, but that invites opportunity for abuse. Most police officers I've known or dealt with have been extremely professional and are the sort of people I'm happy to have in my community. However, I also live near some areas that have had some indisputably corrupt police departments (at least if you consider later convictions and even the dissolution of the local government indisputable). These people make it bad for everyone else.

I'm starting to view the taser as something that is more of a detriment to police than an asset, despite all the good they can do. Seeing video like this provokes an angry reaction with a significant portion of the population, whether or not it is deserved. This, in turn, reduces respect for the police, in many cases by quite a lot. Ultimately, if the community doesn't trust and respect the police, they become more like an occupying force than a useful member of the community.

That may sound extreme, but I've lived a few places where that was the prevailing attitude. I was quite surprised upon getting my first professional position in a new town to find out that my colleagues viewed the local force as a bunch of armed thugs who only wrote tickets and harassed teenagers. These were law abiding citizens who owned businesses, volunteered for charity and were generally pillars of the community, too, not some angry kids. Sad, really.

 

[Brian Perry]

As innocent or friendly as your intentions may have been, it seems to me he was irritated because you interrupted him in doing his job. Now if he had tased you, that would be another matter.

 

[KurtEP]

I sincerely doubt that the officer in that video would be willing to take a bullet for me. After all, he was willing to harm someone to protect his car.

 

[Paul Padilla]

On the window portion of the incident alone, protecting the vehicle is much less likely a motive than subduing a violent and flailing person. Allowing her to continue that behavior would only have resulted in her injuring herself, possibly severely. Not trying to stop her would have been negligent.

Back to the incedent at hand, all the steps the officers took leading up to the Tasing were attempts to stop the confrontation which was the best possible outcome. Meyers didn't just disrespect the officers, but Senator Kerry and every other member of the audience.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Excellent post Paul. As far as the rest of the "save the poor, poor protester from the fascist police" posters, you know about as much about police work as the inevitable fool in a police shooting thread who exclaims "the cops should have just shot the gun out of the poor guy's hand". :rolleyes

"Saving his car"

 

[KurtEP]

I once was hit on the side of the head with a crowbar while working. It took me about 15 minutes to get off of the ground. I've also had people threaten to kill me. On the hobby front, I've been kicked so hard (by a master level karate instructor) that I was lifted off the ground and thrown back about six feet. I've also broken ribs and teeth. All in the name of fun.

 

[Paul Padilla]

A deep purple, foot-shaped bruise on my right bicep/shoulder. Better that than my ribs where it was headed.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Try breaking the door down into heroin dens and facing drunken loudmouth idiots who may or may not be harmless every day of your life for 20 years and then you can begin to talk about what is "reasonable" as far as force is concerned. Sorry, but the moral outrage and utter shock you silly people are expressing at the "butality" shown to this "harmless" boy is hysterical.

This kid was given every opportunity to stop resisting and he didn't. So they used non-lethal force on him. If it hadn't been in an enclosed area surrounded by civilians, they probably would have given him a dose of capsicum and that would be the end of it. Instead the tasered him. Happens every day, hundreds of times a day, for the suspect's protection as well the officers and bystanders.

Let me remind you all in two words what the alternative to a taser used to be before less physical means became available: Rodney King . . . Although I'm quite sure the level of righteous indignation would be even higher in here had that little incident been repeated. I imagine someday in the future we'll have a "police brutality" thread disussing how a fascist officer had the nerve to subdue some punk with the "Level 2" instead of "Level 2.5" stun setting of his phaser and the usual suspects will be in here once more bagging on the cops. That is, until they actually need a cop . . .

 

[Jason Seaver]

Well, if we were talking about a heroin dealer, that might be relevant. This is a guy being hauled off by police for, basically, talking, and then being hit with a weapon when he objected to that. Okay, maybe the taser was the best way to subdue him, but what the heck were the police doing grabbing him anyway?

 

[Carl Johnson]

The guy was disrupting the presentation so he was asked to leave, and he refused. The police attempted to escort the guy out of the building and he resisted. The police attempted to handcuff the guy and he resisted again. The police warned him that he would be tazed if he continued to struggle and he continued to struggle. The taser was not used on the guy because he was annoying, it was used because he continued to resist arrest after having committed disorderly conduct.

 

[KurtEP]

Funny that you mention Rodney King. I've seen the longer version of the video where he charges the officers. If I remember correctly, the incident also occurred after a high speed chase. I actually had far more sympathy for the officers in that case. They were clearly not trying to kill him, since one or two good shots with a baton to the head would have done that in short order. He was a large, angry man who posed a clear threat and continued to keep trying to get up and charge while being hit by batons. By that point, I assumed he was on some serious drugs. That's a far cry from a skinny political protester/buffoon or a drunk woman.

 

[KurtEP]

Yeah, the ribs aren't the best things to use to block kicks, or punches, for that matter. :frowning:

My dentist gave me the strangest look when I explained that the trouble with my broken molar started with a good punch to the jaw.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Kurt,

My comments were not to you (outside of the "protecting his car" thing) they were more towards the philosophical expose about the role of police in society that another poster was spewing. Ask any cop and he'll tell you what his "job" is - To get home safe to his wife and kids. Period.

As far as the dangers faced by police, you'd be surprised. I live in a mddle class suburb of Boston and my brother is a cop here. Looking at the town you wouldn't know it, but busting into heroin dens is something they do on a daily basis. Granted they don't face the dangers of city cops, but it only takes one psycho to ruin a day. My real point was the only reason for all the outrage is this was in a public forum and on camera. In real life it happens every day. Just watch Cops on Fox for a dozen examples. But then again, the lowlifes on Cops aren't political protesters at a university, so I imagine they don't get quite as much sympathy from the usual bleeding hearts out there. Just like cops, we all tend to protect our own.

 

[KurtEP]

No problem Jeff. As you might have noticed, I enjoy a good discussion.

Also, I know that the police do face a lot of danger that you wouldn't expect. Still, there are lines that can be crossed, and it's healthy to debate where those lines are. I'm willing to give the police a lot of latitude, and the benefit of the doubt in most cases. Still, I'm not willing to give them carte blanche just because their job is dangerous. In the Kerry case, I even if I'm right that the tasing was excessive, I wouldn't want to see anything further than a change in policy. The other video deserves a far harder look. Maybe the force was justified, but keep in mind that the department initiated the investigation in that case, not some kid with a camera. In any event, it's a topic worth discussing.

 

[Ken Chui]

Did Meyer present a serious public danger to warrant the use of a stun gun on him? Regardless of his line of questions, Meyer was exercising his student free speech rights; in Tinker vs. Des Moines, the Supreme Court states that students ''students do not shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door". Despite this, school administrators do exercise a greater ability in restricting the speech of students, perhaps moreso than the government with the greater public.

Dealing with antagonistic comments comes with the job as a police officer; if you're taking things personally, you're in the wrong profession.