"Citizen Kanes" of cinema (1 Viewer)

[rich_d]

And I can't believe only one person seconded my nomination of The Wizard of Oz. Have you guys seen that movie? It's the most significant pioneer of speculative film ever! Without the fantastical/realistic imagery in Oz, there would be no Star Wars, no 2001, no Lord of the Rings.

Sometimes silence means consent. However, not my consent. I dearly love the movie since I was a kid but don't see the connection between a great musical and a great science fiction movie like 2001 - A Space Odyssey. What was the significant speculative nature of The Wizard Of OZ?

 

[Andrew 'Ange Hamm' Hamm]

OK, Seth, my man. You've argued your point handsomely.

For surround sound a better Kane example would be Fantasia. Walt DID take a risk, and took it well before anyone else was going that way.

An excellent point! I can't believe I didn't think of Fantasia.
As for Wizard of Oz, it's much more than a great musical or a great kids' movie. It set the standard for speculative cinema. Oz single-handedly created the idea that cinema could create a believable fantasy world. The sets, costuming, mattes, makeup, and effects were all completely revolutionary. From the desolate dustiness of Kansas (and that incredibly realistic tornado) to the sunny tininess of Munchkinland, through the various different parts of Oz, and to the Emerald City, every part of the movie completely immerses the audience in magical scenery and people. It is a movie like none before and few since.
IMHO, every movie that has ever tried to put people in non-realistic locations owes a ton to the vision of Oz, which showed that it can be done. Take away the CGI and you'll find that many set and character effects today are essentially the same today. Perhaps 2001 was a pretty weak example (since they had realistic space program footage and science to draw on), but such sci-fi as Star Trek and fantasy as Star Wars owe a lot to Oz.

 

[Gabe D]

Off the top of my head, I'd probably put Terminator 2 (or even The Abyss) ahead of Jurassic Park as the CGI breakthrough film. I can see where Jurrasic Park took it to another level, but I think movies like T2 paved the way.

 

[Robin Warren]

I would nominate Blazing Saddles for its use of flatulance as an art form. Sure it made you laugh a lot, but it also made you think.

 

[rich_d]

Dude - "desolate dustiness of Kansas"?

Sure, full props for the wacky, wonderful, world that is the wiz. Two can play that game.

Seriously, I see your point. And as far as sets, mattes, makeup, etc. they did make fantasy seem believable.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Ange, your points are why I agree on Wizard of Oz. The idea of such a fantastical world being brought to life was a reach to say the least and went somewhere that people hadn't really gone.

The idea had been done and toyed with, but Oz put it on a scale that changed people's concepts about how fantasy could be done. Even more it altered AUDIENCE'S EXPECTATIONS. That's a key too for a list like this.

While I mentioned Fantasia, it's surround sound did not alter filmmaking at all so in that way it's also not a Kane film. Had it caught on at that point, had audiences demanded more of that, then it would be. As it stands it is merely an attempt.

And I should point out that I don't think the audiences have to flock to it, but if the world of filmmakers doesn't and the audience doesn't, then it isn't a Kane type film. You have to be a true mass influence in some manner. Either changing what filmmakers think is possible, try to do, or how they envision making a film; or alter the public's expectations from films.

That's what hurts Tron as a CGI Kane. It came and went and nobody cared, despite it's groundbreaking work. Star Wars did that for effects, but Tron did not. Close call between T2 and JP, both raised the bar, but was it far enough or uniquely enough from what already existed?

 

[Nathan V]

I both agree and disagree with that other person who posted Natural Born Killers and Fight Club. These are not 'Citizen Kane' movies. Hell, not even Lord of the Rings is a 'CK' movie. it's WAYYY to soon to know for sure. Still, though, I have a feeling Fight Club and Natural Born Killers will have a distinct effect on cinema in the future. (Please stop laughing!) Aside from atmosphere, both films are strikingly similar: both appear to be pro-violence films, and they are both anti-violence films. Both have recieved polarized responses from audiences and critics alike. Today, they are little more than cult movies (albeit cult movies with huge followings). These two films are ABOUT the 90's. Unfortunately, they were both made IN the 90's. Therefore, they come at a time when they are almost certain to be misunderstood. The situation is oddly similar to several Scorsese and most Kubrick films. I still find it hard to believe that people do not realize NBK is a satire. Perhaps in the years to come, more people will realize what masterpieces these two films are, arguably the two most important films of the 90's (with the possible exception of Pulp Fiction and Silence...Lambs), at least in terms of psychological/moral messages, self awareness (?), biting social commentary, detail (in every aspect) and sheer technical brilliance.

Nathan

BTW, if you've only seen the theatrical cut of NBK, please go get the director's cut, which is two minutes longer. two minutes is lot of footage, folks. the extended cut has 150 more shots, which 'gels' the film together better. According to the BFI, it's also easier to recognize as a satire.

 

[Mitty]

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Toy Story (although one could go more than a decade earlier and cite Tron as being the precursor).
The Jazz Singer (1927)
2001: A Space Odyssey
Deep Throat

 

[JonZ]

Heres my list: (The first 5 are in my Top10 of all time,almost in order)

Off the top of my head.....

2001 A Space Odyssey

Apocalypse Now

The Godfather

Seven Samurai

Blade Runner

Superman The Movie

Jaws

A Clockwork Orange

Halloween(Im sure many wont agree here but its my opinion)

Ran

One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest

Monty Python & The Holy Grail

The Wild Bunch

Roshomon

In a few more years:

Goodfellas

Schindlers List

Pulp Fiction

Raging Bull

Saving Private Ryan

Forrest Gump

I personally believe Malcolm X and Oliver Stones films from Platoon - Nixon belong on this list as well.

 

[AllanN]

A.I. Among others listed here. A.I. had a perfect blend of traditional photography and CGI effects. It is the first movie that I compleatly just forgot about the effects.

 

[DeeF]

A confusing thread. Are we going for great films or influential films?

I'm always amused when people mention "Citizen Kane" as an influential film. It influenced nobody. It is in an exclusive club all to itself, and that is why it is a great film. It did use a huge amount of cinematic tricks (all pioneered by earlier filmmakers) and it combined these with superb writing and acting. It is a great masterpiece, but there is nothing else like it.

I'm also surprised when people say "Citizen Kane "is great, even though they slept through it. What? It's hugely entertaining! That's the chief reason for its greatness. It's an uncannily artistic film that never disappoints an audience (if they are looking with the right eyes).

But there's no "Citizen Kane" genre. There are very few people even willing to say that Welles is their spiritual guide. A movie like "Gone With The Wind" is far more influential, even if nobody else could achieve its superb blend of sentiment and epic storytelling and illustrative visuals and music. Everybody today wants to be Scorsese or Tarantino or Spielberg, or even Ford, Hawkes, Hitchcock. Where are Welles's heirs?

Sometimes a work of art is great because of innovation (Intolerance, Potemkin). Sometimes a work of art is great because it is the culmination of a lot of previous experimentation finally finding its fruition (Snow White, Ben-Hur). Sometimes a work is great because it is startling and fresh (Citizen Kane, Pulp Fiction). The only thing that remains true of all of these works is that they retained their original quality over the years, and that's 85 years for Intolerance.

 

[Agee Bassett]

Certainly a unique charge. Care to back that up?

 

[DeeF]

What I meant was, there really are no other films like Citizen Kane. There are a lot of film noirs, so one could say "Maltese Falcon" was very influential. There are quite a lot of DeMille type Biblical epics, lots of "Star Wars" wannabes, plenty of movies aping "Pulp Fiction's" brand of comedy and violence and non-sequential plotting.

I even think Welles's other films are remarkably different in tone, technique and writing. The Magnificent Ambersons is actually a richer story, more nuanced, even with the botched (and re-edited ending).

Citizen Kane's vaguely historical story of a man corrupted despite his own ideals had no precedent, and I can't think of another one since (All The King's Men is the closest, but not in the same league). This is partly due to the fact that the movie was not popular, and didn't make a big splash, so it didn't change how studios wanted to present movies. "How Green Was My Valley" was the Academy-Award winner that year, and when you see it today, you see a lot of other movies, studio products, at the same time. John Ford was more influential as a movie auteur than Welles.

I still think it's a masterpiece. Bach was a great artist, precisely because no one else sounds like him. He was only influential in that people wanted to be him, not recreate his sounds. Of course, Bach was already an "old-fogie" when he was writing his music -- no one would say he was innovative. He was the culmination of a great tradition, not the forger of a new one.

 

[DeeF]

I just thought of a hugely influential film, "The Searchers."

It's certainly a great film, not a success in its time, but altering the visions of many a filmmaker who came later.

There are quite a lot of movies which are variations on "The Searchers," basically concerning an obsessive search (usually with a morally-constrained anti-hero) for someone who doesn't wish to be found, and the final compromise of these two.

"Jaws" owes a lot to "The Searchers." Schrader's "Taxi Driver" and "Hardcore" are specific hommages to "The Searchers."

The latest movie to be derived from "The Searchers" is "Saving Private Ryan." Private Ryan doesn't want to be saved. I saw the similarity immediately.

 

[Tom Rhea]

What about Bride of Frankenstein? I believe James Whale used camera movement more extensively than was the norm at the time. Although not revolutionary, I think it was pretty influential, IIRC.

 

[Doug D]

Actually, the charge of CITIZEN KANE not being influential is hardly unique. Gilbert Adair, in his book FLICKERS: AN ILLUSTRATED CELEBRATION OF 100 YEARS OF CINEMA, references a still from KANE with this text:

"I chose it, primarily, because it demonstrates the extent to which CITIZEN KANE was to remain marginal to film history. For how many subsequent filmmakers were influenced by that? Robert Aldrich, possibly, in the fifties (KISS ME DEADLY, THE BIG KNIFE). Stanley Kubrick in the sixties (LOLITA, DR. STRANGELOVE). Bernardo Bertolucci in the seventies (THE SPIDER'S STRATEGY, THE CONFORMIST). Raul Ruiz, albeit as its parodist, in the eighties. And SCHINDLER'S LIST in the nineties (as in the sinister Wellesian swagger with which Liam Neeson's Schindler commandeers the space around him). The postwar cinema took a different route on the whole, its point of departure Rossellini and Italian neo-realism, its culmination the nouvelle vague and a seemingly unending succession of national new waves (Latin American, Eastern European, Swiss, Canadian, even British). As Truffaut said, the influence of Welles' film was aspirational rather than professional, in that it prompted more vocations, among future directors and critics, than any others."

Adair's a blowhard at times, but he has a point. I'd add Todd Haynes' VELVET GOLDMINE to the list, but that doesn't make it very large regardless, compared to the number of films influenced by Godard or Rossellini.

 

[Lew Crippen]

Bach was a great artist, precisely because no one else sounds like him. He was only influential in that people wanted to be him, not recreate his sounds. Of course, Bach was already an "old-fogie" when he was writing his music -- no one would say he was innovative. He was the culmination of a great tradition, not the forger of a new one.

No one would take issue with Bach being the culmination (and supreme master) of the Baroque era. Still, I’d suggest that the Well-Tempered Clavier alone would be enough to establish Bach as the forger of a new tradition. And while in a musical theme, while thinking about the lack of other directors following Citizen Kane with copies, I’m reminded of a story attributed to Brahms: When asked when he was going to finally write a symphony, he commented about having to follow in the heavy, heavy tread of the footsteps of the 9th.

But I admit this may be picking at nits. You have raised a thought, one with which I disagree for the moment, but one to consider.

 

[DeeF]

No one would take issue with Bach being the culmination (and supreme master) of the Baroque era. Still, I’d suggest that the Well-Tempered Clavier alone would be enough to establish Bach as the forger of a new tradition. And while in a musical theme, while thinking about the lack of other directors following Citizen Kane with copies, I’m reminded of a story attributed to Brahms: When asked when he was going to finally write a symphony, he commented about having to follow in the heavy, heavy tread of the footsteps of the 9th.

The "footsteps of the 9th" quote by Brahms is referring to Beethoven, a very influential composer, not to Bach. Bach did not write symphonies.

 

[Doug D]

part of the problem is that, throughout this thread, important and influential and good have sort of been used interchangably.

One can be a supreme master without being supremely influential. I'd argue that Stan Brakhage is a complete master at what he's doing right now in film, but his influence on the direction of cinema is almost negligible. Even limiting the discussion to obscure avant-garde directors, I imagine Kenneth Anger to have 100x the influence Brakhage had.

 

[Agee Bassett]

Quote:

Quite a moot point. Indeed, perhaps no other film has been heralded as the great champion of the auteurist philosophy than Kane. Legion are testimonials from filmmakers as diverse as Lean, Bogdanovich, Scorsese, Friedkin, Kubrick, Gilliam, Kieslowski, Spielberg, etc., to the influence of Welles’ magnum opus upon their craft.