BTTF: R1 version will not have dts tracks; Petition needed for 4th disc!!! (1 Viewer)

[Terrell]

Bottom line, if the 'Die Hard' series can dedicate 2 discs for each movie, I am pretty sure the BTTF series deserve similar treatment.

Yeah, and purchasing all 3 Die Hard 2-disc DVDs, or the full box set, costs quite a bit, in fact a lot more than this 3-disc set will. They're releasing all 3 at the same time, and they're trying to keep it at a price that's reasonable and will sell well. They can't do that by making it a 6-disc box set. The cost would be to high and it wouldn't sell well enough.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Carl Johnson]

ditto.

 

[Yannick Martin]

I'm not saying I want them to degrade the video transfer to put DTS on this release, all I'm saying is that they should put all the new R1 extras on a forth disc and keep the DTS track.

YM

 

[Eric F]

Well, it's too bad this thread has degnerated into a "who shot John" thread again. We've seen too much of this on the forum lately. It seems civil conversation and the internet don't mix. Before I post I'd like to think I'd be able to say these things to people face to face. If you keep that in mind I think alot of people would probably not post half the things they do.
This thread is starting to get ugly. I would suggest the mods lock-it.
This thread seems like the P&S bashing thread. Why people get upset over how other people spend their money is beyond me. Let's try and keep this forum civil folks. I don't post many places anymore, and I'd like to be able to keep posting here.
I apologize to the mods if I overstepped my bounds.
I now return you to your local broadcast.

 

[David Judah]

Again, Terrell, it's no different than having some other feature ommitted(like the ones I listed in my first post in this thread). It just seems like when it happens to be a DTS track and someone complains, some members come out of the woodwork to tell them how foolish they are. Who are the fanatics here?

So, Bob Gale has heard both and thinks the difference is negligible? Great--I wonder if he has an position in the SACD vs. DVD-A debate, too. It is one man's opinion just like the myriad of opinions we get here when a multi-track release comes out. Put it on the disc and give the consumer a choice, just like other studios have done on big titles.

So, he's worried about space? Great. Add another disc for extras and give the consumer the true "full meal deal" like other studios have done on big titles.

DJ


*Disclaimer lest I be labeled a DTS zealot or fanatic: no feature ommission, of any sort, will diminish my enjoyment of owning these films on DVD.

 

[Ned]

Insult to injury, the DD track is the minimum 384kbit, not even the 448kbit possible.

If they had to slash and burn features like DTS and use a cutrate DD track, how can the video quality be any good at all?

 

[David Judah]

We'll just degrade the transfer a bit so we won't disappoint the DTS diehards?

I have viewed plenty of DD only titles with sub-par to average transfers and plenty of multi-track releases with excellent transfers, so adding DTS does not automatically mean a degraded transfer will result.

Some people obviously have more skill than others when putting DVDs together.

DJ

 

[Jeff Bamberger]

I wonder what would happen if DTS were the DVD standard spec and DD5.1 was "the other format"?

Would we want that so badly because it is not the standard?


Anyways, especially since Bob Gale has personally reviewed the tracks, I am in the camp of give me the extras and drop the DTS. I love DTS, don't get me wrong, but if the producer of the film hears no discernible difference, why include it?

However, I would prefer that all the extras go to a fourth disc so the movies get the benefit of both layers of each disc. It can only help (tough using my argument, maybe they tried it and Gale saw no discernible difference).

Regarding a possible mail-in fourth disc....With respect to Alien, I thought the idea was that those who bought the set got the offer to mail in for the extra....Isn't BTTF only going to be available as a set? If so, why make people mail in for it? Could this not be a sign that all the movies will be available individually eventually? If not, then I see no reason not to include the extra disc with the set right off the bat....

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Insult to injury, the DD track is the minimum 384kbit, not even the 448kbit possible.

The import version is 384k, we don't know about the domestic one yet.
Multiple soundtracks always reduce picture quality. While supplements can affect average video bitrate, multiple soundtracks always reduce peak video bitrate.
Both average and peak bitrate are important.
Does this mean a disc can't look great with lots of soundtrack bits being used? No, but the picture might be more filtered to reduce artifacts. You might not ever know how much more detailed the picture could have been.
For the record, I am also opposed to the inclusion of French and Spanish tracks on all R1 DVDs, even those bound for Quebec. Let them read subtitles! Original language only! Save those bits for the peak video bitrate!
footnote: While I don't support this petition, I don't belittle the opinions of those who want DTS on this release. They have a right to their opinions and deserve respect.
On the other hand, I do think that boycotting this release on the same terms is cutting off one's nose to...you know.

 

[Terrell]

If they had to slash and burn features like DTS and use a cutrate DD track, how can the video quality be any good at all?

Read what Michael posted. Even if it is 384, I don't see how a lower bitrate DD track and no DTS has any effect on a video transfer. Can you tell me how scrapping the DTS track and possibly going with a lower bitrate DD track equates to a poor transfer. The two have nothing to do with one another, other than leaving more space for the transfer and extras, which is a good thing. But we don't even know what the R1 disc has yet.

 

[Craig_T]

The MGM Terminator DD track is awful! Give me the original anyday.

I agree. The new track was so gimmicky and bizarre for someone that's heard the original track dozens of times. Plus lots of memorable original audio portions were just dropped entirely. Thank god the original audio track was included.

 

[Carlo_M]

This thread is a classic example of You Can't Please All of the People All of the Time.
As someone who has heard a difference in some DTS tracks (SPR) and not in others, I could really care less that DTS is not on there. Given the fidelity of a 1985 soundtrack, I doubt that there will be anything missing from the DD track. Hell, I have played The Red Violin over and over trying to hear a difference between the DD and DTS tracks and there isn't any that I can hear, as is the case with most other half-bit DTS/DD tracks that I sample and adjust for volume differences.
This is my favorite quote of this thread:

My fear is that the video/audio quality will be sacrificed/compromised in trying to load up the discs. Sure, the picture/sound will be done so as to be acceptable to most people but I am pretty sure if the extras were pushed to separate discs, the extra space could be used to maximize the bit rates for the audio/video as well as provide room for the dts tracks.

This clearly shows the misunderstanding that DTS ALSO TAKES UP A LOT OF SPACE!!! The makers have opted to use the DTS space for extras, so the net effect on video quality should be nil. And as far as audio quality goes, if Bob Gale has said that he's heard the DTS/DD comparison and hears little to no difference, that's good enough for me.
I wonder, do the people complaining about no DTS here complain about no DTS for every other DVD release? Should be consistent, if anything...
I will be buying this set on release date and if others are holding out, then there will just be less of a line for me at the checkout counter.

 

[george kaplan]

It's not quite just one man's opinion. It's one man "who's heard both tracks" opinion. It may just be his opinion, and it may not agree with others, but it is one of the few "informed" opinions on the issue. Very few of us either clamoring for DTS or saying we don't care can have a very informed opinion about how much better, if any, the DTS track for BTTF sounds compared to DD.

 

[David Judah]

Who said anything about limiting each movie to one disc, Terrell? The whole point is that they could have gone the route that some studios have, and delivered everything including DTS without degrading picture quality. There are plenty of examples where that has been done.

Again as far as Bob Gale is concerned, he made the decision but that doesn't mean that we all would have agreed with him if we had a chance to compare. Using your logic I could say that DVD-A is superior to SACD because Bob Stuart thinks so and he knows 100 times more about digital audio technology than I do.

They don't get criticized for wanting the DTS track. It's when they go nuts over it.

Imposing an idea of a sufficient feature set on everyone else, seems more nuts than anything those who wished for DTS have said. I could care less about cover art, menu design, or the kind of cases DVDs come in(there are many other examples), but I respect the fact that others do care about those things.

DJ

 

[Carlo_M]

One more point.

For those who argue "Just add one more disc..."

There are studies from people in the industry whom I cannot name, but they work for one of the companies that track DVD sales:

There is a big difference in sales when you add more discs.

Sure the diehards like us don't care if it's a 2, 3, 5, heck make it a 10 disc set!!! But that is not how the general populace feels about it. Adding a fourth disc will increase the base price and translate to less units sold. Period. Do some research and see how well the 2 disc Toy Story box set sold compared to the 3 disc version. You'll be surprised.

It is not as easy as "just add another disc."

 

[David Judah]

Carlo, I don't think we want to go there, because after all, the masses don't like those pesky black bars either .

 

[Carlo_M]

Sorry David, but I have to respectfully disagree. Not including a fourth disc is not analagous to altering the film that we love by chopping off between 20-45% of it!

But very similar to your comparison, it's about making money for the studios. Face it, if they don't make money, they won't make product. Anyone who remembers purchasing DVDs in early 1997 (bought my first Toshiba in May 97) knows how frustrating it is to *not* have movies on DVD. Now we have the movies we want coming at an astonishing clip, and getting treated pretty well to boot. Now we start complaining about every little thing, and it's kind of disappointing yet, I guess, expected.

No wonder when I talk to studio people there is a sort of smirk when they talk about Joe Six Pack as well as Jack Home Theater Hobbyist.

 

[Henry Woo]

1) This thread is not meant to be a DD vs DTS thread.

2) This thread is not a "the BTTF disc don't have DTS, therefore I am not going to buy the discs" thread.

3) This thread is to facilitate discussion and support for the BTTF trilogy of films to get the royal dvd treatment that the films deserved. And one disc per film does not cut it.

4) Again, I applaud Bob Gale for trying to get as much behind the scenes info and extras on the discs as possible. However as I mentioned previously, I think with the status of these films in fan's hearts, that they should have dedicated more disc space for the films. One disc should be dedicated to each film with the DD and DTS tracks and audio commentaries. All other extras should be on additional discs, whether it takes one disc (or two or three). By doing this, you ensure that the film gets all the disc/bit space that it needs to ensure picture and audio quality. Loading everything onto one disc for each disc can only lead to compromises in those areas.

5) As for more discs in the set leads to less sales, of course the average consumer will go for the cheaper set while the true fans of the movie want the 'multi-disc tell me everything about the movie'box set. I would hope most members of this forum are part of the latter group.

6) With Universal track record regarding dvd treatment (ie. Jaws, ET, Total Axxess, double-dipping with their Ultimate Editions), I was hoping for an improvement in their treatment of BTTF.

To sum it up, I will be one of the first ones to line up to purchase the box set on December 17th. And I will be happy with the discs (now that the long wait for the movies are over). However I will be a little disappointed that it wasn't given the full blown treatment that it deserves (like Lord of the Rings, Pearl Harbor, Gladiator, etc). I just hope that Universal doesn't reissue an Ultimate set in the near future with DTS tracks and additional discs. There would be hell to pay then.

 

[Dharmesh C]

I think adding a 4th disc to the set is not going to hurt sales cos there's a big fan base. Also, no alternatives like the Toy Story example a few replies up.

 

[LukeB]

Do some research and see how well the 2 disc Toy Story box set sold compared to the 3 disc version.

A terrible example, since the 2-disc was proportionately far underpriced. Opening week, the 2-Pack was selling for just $19.99 in Best Buy. Whereas the 3-disc Set ($69.99 SRP, which was less than two $39.99 2-disc sets together would have been) was selling for $40 or more.
Throw into the mix that half the people buying thought that the only difference between the sets is a Disc of Extras (which is so far from the truth), etc. and you got explanations. Had the 2-Pack retailed for $49.99 or $54.99 versus the Ultimate Toy Box retailing for $69.99 or $64.99, the difference in sales would have been huge. Disney priced the 2-pack so affordably that many people, even those who are fans of extras, opted to save what was $20 by going for the cheap, barebones release.
Which is a shame because The Ultimate Toy Box is just about the greatest DVD release ever, as those of us who bought it know.