Best Pre/Pro (1 Viewer)

[Keir H]

Lest not forget the new super units from Linn and EAD..I think the Linn has the new Kisto which said to bridge the best of both worlds together, 2channel and movie modes..while the EAD has always had a stellar rep and the new THeatermaster preamp shown at the recent shows is a killer looking piece...argh... heck, they are all awesome!

 

[ChrisArmour]

What about the Audio Control Maestro?

 

[JohnnyN]

I'll add a few more to that list.
California Audio Labs
Sim Audio

 

[Stephen M]

Cal Audio is out of business. Sim audio is a good brand but little distribution is the US. I see nothing special about their gear compared to others but YMMV. My vote goes to the Meridian G series. Very expensive but absolutely state of the art with trifield processing audio upconverting. Closely approaches the 800 series at about half the price.

 

[John Kotches]

Stephen,

You won't hear me arguing about Meridian being the best. I don't know why Meridian Room Correction is being overlooked, as it's a tremendous improvement to every room!

Best Regards,

 

[Russell _T]

What do the above mentioned mega buck pre's have that would make them sound better than your Denon? The 4802, or even the 3802 measure as good as it gets. Anything that measures better is not audible, so why pay for it? Features are a different matter, but how many features do you need that the 4802 doesn't already have?
Like you mentioned, put your test Pre's up against the Denon, and take a listen. If they don't sound noticibly better, upgrade your speakers instead.
Good luck and have fun. Playing with new high end gear is a blast.

 

[John Kotches]

Russ,

In the case of my Meridian favorites:

• Analog Devices DACs instead of Burr-Brown mid-range DACs
• A digital connection for DVD-Audio
• More flexible Bass Management
• Room Correction
• Trifield
• Upsampling of PCM inputs from any source
• The ability to drive Meridian's DSP loudspeakers
• Superb A/D at 24/96K for processing multi-channel analog inputs as Just Another Digital Source

I won't even get into the proprietary (instead of stock) DD, DPL, DPL-2, and DTS algorithms employed.

Whether or not these are of value to you I cannot say.

Cheers,

 

[Russell _T]

Hi John,
I can't find the quotes feature here, so I will answer your points in order.
1) Is there an audible difference between those DAC's? No.
2) Digital connection is nice, but how many DVDA players can you hook it up to? Meridian probably has one, but how much does that cost?
3) Nice feature, but I have a $30.00 SPL meter that does pretty much the same thing.
4)Similar to L7? My $900.00 Outlaw has the same thing except for stereo side surrounds. Sounds pretty good. Trifield may have a few more parameters to tweak. I guess endless tweaking is a high end perk.
5) Can't comment on the upsmpling as I'm not that familiar with it. Does it upsample redbook CD's or DVDA, or any audio source from PCM?
6)Can't afford Meridian speakers anyway.
7)Once again, I don't think this makes an audible diference.
Proprietary DD and DPL? I thought those were proprietary to Dolby Labs etc. Do they allow Meridian to make their own, or make some special version for them? How does it improve on a $300.00 Pioneer receiver with those formats loaded on?
Just having some fun here. You know I respect everyone's opinion. I'm just leary of high end audio claims. I've seen too many people throw common sense out the window and buy stuff they really can't afford and don't need because they were sold a bill of goods.

 

[John Kotches]

Russ,

Meridian's actually one of the brands that has a substantial bit of R&D behind their products, and even have articles routinely published in the Journal of the AES.

7)Once again, I don't think this makes an audible diference. Proprietary DD and DPL? I thought those were proprietary to Dolby Labs etc. Do they allow Meridian to make their own, or make some special version for them? How does it improve on a $300.00 Pioneer receiver with those formats loaded on?

Higher precision DSP, and custom tuned algorithms.

Decide for yourself. You're in a large enough area that there will likely be a Meridian dealer. Borrow a G68 or 568.2MM and see what you think.

Cheers,

 

[Russell _T]

Actually Bigwally and I spent a day at "Sounds Like Music" in Phoenix recently, and they carry pretty much all the latest high end SS gear including Meridian. I spent quite a bit of time in one of their sound rooms switching between the ML and Meridian rigs with B&W Sig 800 speakers.
I can expound on that later. I would like to say the personal at that store were the most gracious I have ever encountered. They knew we were not buying but gave us the run of the store and complimentary drool buckets.
Thanks for the feedback, but so far you haven't said anything that would make me believe the Meridian would sound any better than the original posters Denon 4802. All you are saying is that because they do a lot of their own R&D, (granted...and kudos for that) and that they have outstanding build...also granted...that they produce audibly better sound quality. I disagree. Does it have a lower noise floor? The Denon noise floor is already below the threshold of hearing. Does a more expensive DAC make it better? I have heard a very well regarded outboard DAC manufactured by someone we both know, and it sounds no better to me that the DAC in a Denon 3802 no matter how much I wanted it to be better. Of course when I throw a wet blanket on the hi end mystique, I'm accused of being deaf, so that's a possibility. I've just always been a pretty hard core objectivist when it comes to audio, while most people in the business need to believe in it to survive. That I understand and have no problem with. Just two different points of view.
As for L7 and Trifield, I only asked if they were similar. They may implement in slightly different ways, but aren't they both trying to achieve the same goal? That is steering the surround sound field? I think this effect is mostly achieved by fancy phase shifting. Personally I think a discrete channel encoded in the disc is the best way to achieve this, but that's a little off topic.
Oh yeah, the digital connection. It's nice to see this happening but not at 5K or even 1K. There's no reason why mid fi gear, both the pre/pro and transports can't have this feature.
As to your reply to my query about the proprietary DD and DPL, I guess I don't understand what you are saying. Meridians has their own version of DD etc in the form of a proprietary DSP engine, but that their DD and DPL is really just the same as everyone elses? Dolby Lab pretty much sets the standard, and if they are licensing a superior version to Meridian or anyone else, it interesting news.
Have a good evening,

 

[John Kotches]

Russ,

ROFLMAO. Why didn't you have them bring in your Outlaw for a direct comparison? This was a perfect opportunity to demonstrate there weren't audible differences.

Certainly no one would have faulted you for the setup utilized for the comparison. Setting up very accurate playback levels wouldn't have been too difficult.

Ask the guys at Outlaw if the Meridian processors sound better. They'll tell you they do, but the entry price point is nearly 10x the price. Then the question becomes, is it worth it to you on an individual basis?

As for DD and DTS, Meridian writes their own decoding algorithms. Those algorithms are then subjected to a testing suite and either pass or fail. Better or worse, or just different? To my ears, better but I have neither the time, the patience, nor the gear to break down the output of the decoders.

Having had the Outlaw and the Meridian 568.2MM in my system and switching as quickly between them as possible there's no question in my mind that the Meridian sounded better, with matched levels to the accuracy of my radio shack meter.

On the digital interface, you're preaching to the choir. Denon is pushing down the cost of their interface this year, as the AVR-3805 at $1200 will have Denon link. If they've pushed down the cost for that interface on a receiver, the next logical step would be to push down the cost on a player. Nothing was announced at CES, but Denon releases new models throughout the year.

There's more traction on iLink interfaces this year, but still at the top end of the spectrum. I suspect commonplace will occur when HDMI Phase II is out later this year.


Regards,

 

[peter m. wilson]

Hi,
I'm just throwing this out as a money saving possiblility and John would know if this would workk better than I, so

What if to the 4802 which pretty much has all the bells and whistles he were to add (a friend has this for sale) a Carver C1000A which would certainly beef up the amp section, 200w X 5 I think (although I don't know how you'd connect and balance them).

He would have all he really needs and would only spend an extra $800 approx. He could attach the hungriest speakers he wanted to with room to breathe couldn't he?

Peter m.

 

[Russell _T]

Cool.
I agree that Pre/pros have different sounds. (Although they should be designed to be neutral like a good amp) but better could easily be the placebo effect. I don't want to raise the ugly head of blind testing, but it works if you don't get too crazy with it.
I find the info that Dolby Labs or DTS allows Meridian or anyone else to write their algorithms for them interesting and informative. Surprising too.
I do think that you have to struggle to discern any meaningful difference between a $1600.00 Denon Pre/Pro
and a $10,000.00 high end unit. There is no epiphany. No fireworks lighting up the sky saying "OMG this is amazing" like you can get with speakers. There is so much info being passed through a processor so quickly in any given nanosecond that you lose the enjoyment of the moment if you are concentrating on whether you've squeezed the last ounce of performance out of a $10,000.00 piece of steel.
That's why I'm putting in my .02 that the Denon is a very nice piece and unless you just have money to throw away, I think it's better to save it or spend it on speakers.

 

[Doug_B]

John,

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6)Can't afford Meridian speakers anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't either, at least not right now. I'm still paying off the v4 upgrade. In a few years? Who knows.

Thinking of upgrading from the Soundlines one day? Oh no!

Doug

 

[John Kotches]

Doug,

I'm severely space constrained in my new room, and the 24+" depth of the woofer cabinets is working against me in the room. The "workable" length of the room for speakers is about 18', and I'm losing about 25% of the space with the Soundlines.

It's not sonic dissatisfaction, it's (literally) a space issue.

Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Russ,

Placebo effect / preliminary bias can work in both directions. Creating differences that don't exist, and also masking differences that do exist. There's plenty of experimental evidence that it works both ways.

Since we're talking strictly in the subjective realm, that which you might consider "subtle" is something another would consider "night and day". Some are willing to pay the price, others aren't.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with your choice, I just got very lucky on a used 861, otherwise I wouldn't have one myself. The 3805 looks to be a very good piece when it comes out in a couple of months ;-)

As an FYI, all the DSP providers write their machine specific code for DD/DTS decoding based on reference decoder implementations. This is what almost everyone uses, the stock DSP decoder. Lexicon and Meridian are two that don't and there could be others... I'm merely pointing out the ones I'm certain of.

By the way, it's good that we can have this discussion and not have it descend into stupidity.

 

[Stephen M]

I'm sure that everyone on this forum is willing to buy an Outlaw or Denon 4802 instead of that poor stuff from Meridian . As a former owner of both the Denon and Outlaw, I can say neither is in the same league with the Meridian in any substantive manner. But listen for yourself. I like the Lexicon and owned a DC 1, but have no experience with the current models. Logic 7 is good but trifield is better. Do not underestimate the room correction mode for the Meridian. Next to speakers, the room is the most important factor in sound quality. I stand by my original advice, get Meridian if money allows. You will not be sorry.

 

[Robert Jordin]

I am new to the forum but I wanted to jump into the fray. I just purchased the Linn Kisto/Unidisk 1.1 combination replacing the Lexicon MC12B/Arcam DV27 combo. The difference is stunning. So, of course, my vote will be the Kisto.