Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016) (1 Viewer)

[JeremyR]

To me, the new DC movies haven't even tried to see if the audience will respond to what I'd consider the accurate or more traditional representation of the Superman character. They just made the (dumb and lazy) move to go for the cliched 'dark and gritty' story because it worked for Batman.


My main gripe with Man Of Steel was that it was too dark of a story for that character. Superman is ultimately upbeat and positive and the climax of the movie features the utter destruction of Metropolis and the death of hundreds of thousands of people. That's too heavy of a story for Superman.

I think Bryan Singer tried to do that with Returns.. or at least he thought he did. Ultimately, Superman came across as creepy in Superman Returns however. Spying on people, self-loathing, almost pitiful at times and quite depressing.


Interestingly enough.. CBS' Supergirl seems to do successfully what the Superman movies have struggled to do.

 

[JeremyR]

Domestic?? Even I don't think that's possible. Worldwide MOS did tho.


Domestic: $291,045,518 43.6%
+ Foreign: $377,000,000 56.4%
= Worldwide: $668,045,518

Avengers grossed Domestically nearly what MOS did worldwide. Individually there is no hero in the Avengers universe that matches Superman in popularity. Now collectively certainly with Hulk, and Captain America you could make an argument. And I don't think Superman is going to appeal internationally perhaps like some other superhero's might. He's all-American, all the way to his costume. The Amazing Spider-Man 2 grossed more worldwide then Man of Steel, yet did much worse domestically. Good grief.. Guardians of the Galaxy grossed over 333 Million Domestically. Superman should have run over them like a steamroller. It's not the character, it's something Warner Brothers is doing wrong, that much is clear.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Superman II also featured Metropolis being destroyed to some degree without changing who Superman is. He tried to prevent people from being hurt, even taking the fight away from Metropolis. MOS was just too grim and destruction heavy, didn't feel like a Superman movie to me.

The Dawn of Justice special was pretty good, the movie is looking really good.

But the difference between Superman II and Man of Steel is that in S2 Zod's goal was to get superman.

In Man of Steel his goal was to destroy Metropolis and as many people as he could to punish Kal-el. So in S2 all superman had to do was leave metropolis to take the fight out of the city. But in in MoS if he left metropolis Zod would have said "OK, thanks for making this easy" and would have just kept smashing away at the city.

The fight had to take place in the city because that was specifically what Zod wanted.

 

[JeremyR]

The good news is that they are going to get ALL of the Superman fans and ALL of the Batman fans to come see their film.


The bad news is that those two groups of fans overlap by about 96%. So, yeah...

I love Superman, but generally dislike Batman. Though I do have a fondness for Keaton's and Burton's Batman. While I really enjoyed Batman Begins, the rest of the films left me a little cold. I do think letting Nolan and Snyder be in charge of today's modern Superman has made the films a bit too dark. Though, in Man of Steel, in general, Superman ultimately was no different then Chris Reeve's Superman. It's just the setting and the decisions he had to make were much more sinister and the story a little more bleak. But let's be honest, do we really think a half a dozen or more Kryptonian's in a battle royale over Metropolis is going to leave a path of destruction like Donner's Superman 2, or like Man of Steel? Man of Steel is certainly more realistic.

 

[JeremyR]

It is different because Marvel has "grown" those characters with individual films intended to grow their audience, and combined them twice in team settings. They have effectively branded them both, and developed existing dramatic stakes. This is the second time I've seen this Superman and the first time I've seen this Batman. I have minimal investment in these incarnations of the characters, so this film is going to have to do ALL the heavy lifting to work.

Now I'm going to see this film, of course. And I'm going to see Cap 3. Because I don't have to pick.

It also helps that, ultimately, Winter Soldier is a stellar movie. And Warner can't seem to get their head out of their asses marketing their characters for some reason. I mean, let's be honest. If you took Marvel's top assets, and DC's top assets.. as an old comic book fan and reader in my youth. Which one would you want to own and have at your disposal? While Marvel has a much deeper roster of interesting and moderately popular characters, DC should not be struggling to compete with their top characters and frankly should be owning Marvel's ass.



Top DC Comics assets:

Superman

Batman

Wonder Woman

Green Lantern (who has an enormous amount of potential)

The Flash



Top Marvel assets:

Spider-man

Captain America

Hulk

Wolverine

Thor

 

[RobertR]

But the difference between Superman II and Man of Steel is that in S2 Zod's goal was to get superman.

In Man of Steel his goal was to destroy Metropolis and as many people as he could to punish Kal-el. So in S2 all superman had to do was leave metropolis to take the fight out of the city. But in in MoS if he left metropolis Zod would have said "OK, thanks for making this easy" and would have just kept smashing away at the city.

The fight had to take place in the city because that was specifically what Zod wanted.

The fight didn't "have" to take place in the city, because the scriptwriters didn't have to make the story that way. It's their story choices that are being criticized.

 

[JeremyR]

I think you're over thinking it. There are still people to this day that think the Nolan Batman films are in continuity to the Burton films. With Batman, it doesn't matter - audiences will see him in a movie, period.

Which makes no sense because Batman Begins was a true origin story.

 

[JeremyR]

The fight didn't "have" to take place in the city, because the scriptwriters didn't have to make the story that way. It's their story choices that are being criticized.

Superman's greatest weakness is his big heart. And Man of Steel was smart enough to take advantage of that weakness. I love both, but just making the point. What today's superhero films try and do, is show us what it would truly be like if we took these comic book characters and brought them into our world. Instead of bringing us into their comic book world. I'm not arguing with the philosophy, but perhaps your onto something. Maybe that's not the path to take with Superman, Either way, clearly WB is doing something wrong. As Guardians of the Galaxy should not be making more money domestically then a Superman movie.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Which makes no sense because Batman Begins was a true origin story.

There's always a segment of the population that doesn't pay enough attention.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Guardians of the Galaxy "shouldnt" be making more money than Captain America movies, either. Yet it did just that. Why? Because it was the 10th film in a series. Man of Steel was the first in its continuity, and had to overcome the baggage of of Superman Returns and the Reeve films. Their situations are hardly identical.

DC is doing their own thing, and I'm glad it's not just a repeat of the safe, broad appeal of the Marvel formula. But it's also gonna have some growing pains because DC was so successful with prior incarnations of their characters in films/tv/animation that are severely outdated yet are how the public perceive them. The very idea that people are shocked about Batman and Superman fighting each other demonstrates that for most of the public their knowledge of the comics of the last 30-35 years is painfully antiquated. It's a far easier task from a marketing standpoint to brand something no one has an outdated history with such as GotG.

 

[MattBradley]

Guardians of the Galaxy "shouldnt" be making more money than Captain America movies, either. Yet it did just that. Why? Because it was the 10th film in a series. Man of Steel was the first in its continuity, and had to overcome the baggage of of Superman Returns and the Reeve films. Their situations are hardly identical.

DC is doing their own thing, and I'm glad it's not just a repeat of the safe, broad appeal of the Marvel formula. But it's also gonna have some growing pains because DC was so successful with prior incarnations of their characters in films/tv/animation that are severely outdated yet are how the public perceive them. The very idea that people are shocked about Batman and Superman fighting each other demonstrates that for most of the public their knowledge of the comics of the last 30-35 years is painfully antiquated. It's a far easier task from a marketing standpoint to brand something no one has an outdated history with such as GotG.

Absolutely! I've heard so many people talk about how a Bats vs Supes fight should be over in a matter of seconds with Superman standing over a burned corpse. Those people have never read any of the stories where Batman takes down Superman time and time again. They've never heard that Bats has kyptonite in his belt, that he has a way to take down any other superhero in case they go rogue. Bats has major trust issues. He's not the guy from the movies that has multiple guests hanging out in the Batcave.


Plus, Man Of Steel and I'm betting Dawn Of Justice will see Superman evolve into the character we know. He just got started at the end of the last movie. We are watching him learn his place. Batman is going to teach him how to be a man.

 

[Brandon Conway]

All that, plus Superman is gonna purposely restrain himself. Cavill recently compared Superman fighting Batman to a father playing football with his kids. In other words, he's holding back going full strength, and I'm sure the movie will explain this aspect clearly.

 

[TravisR]

All that, plus Superman is gonna purposely restrain himself.

I want a post-credits sequence where they replay the first scene of Batman confronting Superman and Supes literally punches his head off.

 

[Brandon Conway]

I want a post-credits sequence where they replay the first scene of Batman confronting Superman and Supes literally punches his head off.

LOL.

But seriously - no post credits tease, please. No reason to go there.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

The interesting aspect of any of these "versus" or "team-ups" is clearly the philosophical implications of the two heroes/vigilantes/protectors engaging with each other and with each other's process and purpose. It is less about the physical fight and more about the moral authority of such a calling. Superman can apply force to create almost any outcome, and that is the problem. Batman can do only so much good, and therefore only so much harm. Superman can do incredible good, but consequently incredible (existential, even) harm.


Batman's advantage is their conflicts has always been that he will go farther (or appear to) than Superman.


Anyways, do I trust Singer Snyder to bring the philosophical elements to the table? I hope there is more to it than Bruce Wayne teasing Clark Kent about Superman at a Luthor party. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that is there. But I hope the actual meat goes down that trail as earnestly as it does the physical fighting.


Edit: I intended Snyder, and my point remains. But what is the difference?

 

[dpippel]

The film is directed by Zack Snyder, not Singer.

 

[Patrick Sun]

I want a post-credits sequence where they replay the first scene of Batman confronting Superman and Supes literally punches his head off.

And punch in the "The End" card.

 

[Brandon Conway]

The Snyder issue is an interesting one. I personally love how he translates comics to screen visually. BvS looks like he takes what he established with MoS and moves a bit further away from the aesthetic that Nolan brought to DC on film, and then meets his Watchmen aesthetic halfway. Certainly a big part of that is getting Larry Fong back as his DP.

Now, that aesthetic does not appeal to everyone, but I happen to like it, and I think it fit Watchmen perfectly, and should fit this particular gladiatorial match like a glove.

 

[TravisR]

And punch in the "The End" card.

That would be the best part!

 

[Sean Bryan]

Superman's greatest weakness is his big heart. And Man of Steel was smart enough to take advantage of that weakness. I love both, but just making the point. What today's superhero films try and do, is show us what it would truly be like if we took these comic book characters and brought them into our world. Instead of bringing us into their comic book world. I'm not arguing with the philosophy, but perhaps your onto something. Maybe that's not the path to take with Superman, Either way, clearly WB is doing something wrong. As Guardians of the Galaxy should not be making more money domestically then a Superman movie.

I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. Guardians of the Galaxy and Superman really are two different genres. While based on a comic book and part of the Marvel Universe that we know is filled with superheroes, GotG is a space adventure movie while Man of Steel is a superhero movie.

I get your point about about how well known the properties are before the movies were out (Superman = pop culture icon, Guardians = unknown), but they are very different types of movies.