1. Guest,
    If you need help getting to know Xenforo, please see our guide here. If you have feedback or questions, please post those here.
    Dismiss Notice

Bass Managment for stereo system?

Discussion in 'Home Theater Projects' started by Garrett Lundy, Jun 17, 2004.

  1. Garrett Lundy

    Garrett Lundy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,764
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am getting an integrated amp for a new 2-channel system.

    is there a product similar to the Outlaw ICBM but designed for just 2-channel stereo (I'm cheap [​IMG] )? Because I need a way to get my bookshelf speakers to work with my subwoofer. Or do I just hook my subwoofer to the pre-amp out/amp in of the integrated?

    I'm really confused about how to make it work. Why can't stereo gear have a "sub-out" jack like surround gear?
     
  2. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    stereo has no LFE channel, so there's really no need for a separate "sub-out".

    if your sub has it's own "crossover", and you want to try and cross the speakers, you should use the sub's speaker-level inputs and outputs.

    if you're going to run your speakers full-range, then you can use a pre-out on the amp, if you have it, otherwise you can just connect the sub to the same speaker outputs as the speakers, or to a "B" channel, if you have it.
     
  3. DaveHo

    DaveHo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    0
    One of Paradigm's X series crossovers should fit the bill. Although it probably won't be much cheaper than a used Outlaw ICBM. Is the sub powered or passive? That will determine which of those you would want.

    Paradigm X Series Crossovers

    -Dave
     
  4. Garrett Lundy

    Garrett Lundy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,764
    Likes Received:
    0
    Powered sub
     
  5. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    what sub?
     
  6. Garrett Lundy

    Garrett Lundy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,764
    Likes Received:
    0
    Likely either an Outlaw LFM or HSU STF-3. I already have a SVS in my surround system and want to try a different manufacturer.

    I like to plan my system in advance before I spend my hard-earned $$$ [​IMG]

    System will likely contain: NAD c370 integrated amp, Sony CD changer, Axiom loudspeakers, aformentioned subwoofer.
     
  7. DaveHo

    DaveHo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since you can do it all using line level signals, the X30 is what you'd want. Of the three, that one is the most likely to be available on the used market as well. Used ones usually go for $100-$120.

    BTW, nice choice on the integrated. I have one of those in my bedroom system paired with a pair of V2 Paradigm Studio 20's and it's a good combination.

    -Dave
     
  8. DaveHo

    DaveHo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since you can do it all using line level signals, the X30 is what you'd want. Of the three, that one is the most likely to be available on the used market as well. Used ones usually go for $100-$120.

    BTW, nice choice on the integrated. I have one of those in my bedroom system paired with a pair of V2 Paradigm Studio 20's and it's a good combination.

    -Dave
     
  9. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 1999
    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    0
    Over the years, I have tinkered with a few different crossovers for use in the various systems I owned.

    I've tried the 2 channel passive version that M&K sold for several years, an model Henry Kloss made for Cambridge Soundworks for a limited time, an X-30 from Paradigm, some of the passive in-line filters from F-Mod (you need to have use Y cables for these so that both the highpass and lowpass sections both receive complete signals), and finally, the workhorse Outlaw ICBM.

    The only one I was somewhat disappointed in was the Cambridge Soundworks. Henry put the AC to DC converter in the unit where he should have went with a wall wort. So the unit had some hum issues (not bad but not as silent as I wanted.) For the most part, the other units performed well for me. (A note about F-Mods...It's my understanding that the F-Mod route may yield slightly different measured performance than what the filters are rated. This is apparently due to the impedence of the circuit they are inserted into.)

    I am now using the ICBM in a multi-channel system. It seems quite transparent to my ears and is very flexible. IMO, if you can afford it, go for the ICBM, even if you don't plan on using for more than 2 channel for the foreseeable future. It will work great for you now and you will have a flexible tool available for other systems you might use in the future...
     
  10. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 1999
    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    0
    Over the years, I have tinkered with a few different crossovers for use in the various systems I owned.

    I've tried the 2 channel passive version that M&K sold for several years, an model Henry Kloss made for Cambridge Soundworks for a limited time, an X-30 from Paradigm, some of the passive in-line filters from F-Mod (you need to have use Y cables for these so that both the highpass and lowpass sections both receive complete signals), and finally, the workhorse Outlaw ICBM.

    The only one I was somewhat disappointed in was the Cambridge Soundworks. Henry put the AC to DC converter in the unit where he should have went with a wall wort. So the unit had some hum issues (not bad but not as silent as I wanted.) For the most part, the other units performed well for me. (A note about F-Mods...It's my understanding that the F-Mod route may yield slightly different measured performance than what the filters are rated. This is apparently due to the impedence of the circuit they are inserted into.)

    I am now using the ICBM in a multi-channel system. It seems quite transparent to my ears and is very flexible. IMO, if you can afford it, go for the ICBM, even if you don't plan on using for more than 2 channel for the foreseeable future. It will work great for you now and you will have a flexible tool available for other systems you might use in the future...
     
  11. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    garrett, is there some reason you wouldn't want to use the sub's crossover?

    unless your speakers are not suited to the fixed high-pass filter of 80-100Hz that most subs have, then using the sub's crossover is, by far, your most inexpensive alternative.

    i'm not sure why some are so keen to recommend you get an external crossover, when you probably don't need it.
     
  12. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    garrett, is there some reason you wouldn't want to use the sub's crossover?

    unless your speakers are not suited to the fixed high-pass filter of 80-100Hz that most subs have, then using the sub's crossover is, by far, your most inexpensive alternative.

    i'm not sure why some are so keen to recommend you get an external crossover, when you probably don't need it.
     
  13. Garrett Lundy

    Garrett Lundy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,764
    Likes Received:
    0
    It was my undersstanding that Outlaw and/or HSU subs do not have RCA-line inputs, only a catchall LFE input (and no output to send the bass-free signal to the integrated amp) and speaker level inputs which would make the amp half of the c370 kinda useless(since the speakers would be powered by the sub, no?)
     
  14. Garrett Lundy

    Garrett Lundy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,764
    Likes Received:
    0
    It was my undersstanding that Outlaw and/or HSU subs do not have RCA-line inputs, only a catchall LFE input (and no output to send the bass-free signal to the integrated amp) and speaker level inputs which would make the amp half of the c370 kinda useless(since the speakers would be powered by the sub, no?)
     
  15. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    no, that's not the way it works. the stereo's amp still powers the speakers. the sub will never power your speakers, unless we're talking about something like a bose setup.

    again, if you want to cross your speakers and unless your speakers are not suited to the ~80-100Hz fixed high-pass filter (i think) that these subs have, then using the sub's crossover is fine. there's no need for an external xover.
     
  16. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    no, that's not the way it works. the stereo's amp still powers the speakers. the sub will never power your speakers, unless we're talking about something like a bose setup.

    again, if you want to cross your speakers and unless your speakers are not suited to the ~80-100Hz fixed high-pass filter (i think) that these subs have, then using the sub's crossover is fine. there's no need for an external xover.
     
  17. DaveHo

    DaveHo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    0
    Huh? You can't just use a Y to combine the left & right line level signals then send it to the sub. You need to first isolate the individual channels from the preamp. And again there is no high pass output from either of these subs unless you are using speaker level inputs, which isn't what Garrett wants to do. He doesn't want to run the mains full range. Unless I misunderstood what you are saying, there is some really bad misinformation here.

    Garrett, there is an X30 available in the For Sale forum right now. I have no affiliation with the seller.

    X30

    -Dave
     
  18. DaveHo

    DaveHo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    0
    Huh? You can't just use a Y to combine the left & right line level signals then send it to the sub. You need to first isolate the individual channels from the preamp. And again there is no high pass output from either of these subs unless you are using speaker level inputs, which isn't what Garrett wants to do. He doesn't want to run the mains full range. Unless I misunderstood what you are saying, there is some really bad misinformation here.

    Garrett, there is an X30 available in the For Sale forum right now. I have no affiliation with the seller.

    X30

    -Dave
     
  19. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    i guess you misunderstood what i'm saying, because i gave him no "bad information". read my posts again, carefully.


    like i said, unless his main speakers are not suited to the ~80 to 100Hz high-pass filter that those subs will have, garrett can cross his speakers fine with the internal crossover that either of those subs have. he never said he was unwilling to use a speaker-level connection. if you read his posts you'll see that he didn't even understand what was possible with the subs.

    recommending he get an external crossover, when he probably doesn't need it for what he's trying to do, is silly. he doesn't need it. i don't think he's necessarily trying to build an audiophile-quality system.
     
  20. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    0
    i guess you misunderstood what i'm saying, because i gave him no "bad information". read my posts again, carefully.


    like i said, unless his main speakers are not suited to the ~80 to 100Hz high-pass filter that those subs will have, garrett can cross his speakers fine with the internal crossover that either of those subs have. he never said he was unwilling to use a speaker-level connection. if you read his posts you'll see that he didn't even understand what was possible with the subs.

    recommending he get an external crossover, when he probably doesn't need it for what he's trying to do, is silly. he doesn't need it. i don't think he's necessarily trying to build an audiophile-quality system.
     

Share This Page