Any early reviews of Tombstone Vista Series DVD?? (1 Viewer)

[Lewis Besze]

Then why post an "EE is overblown" rant? This title is bad, worse than Die Hard 3, it takes me out of the movie.

While the EE may be worst then DH3,that disc had other problems that really distracted me,and made me complain about it publicly,which I rearly do.Not because I'm not for quality,I just have better things to do then complain!

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Man, I tell you what, I sicerely hope that I never develope the kinds of eyes most of you have! Edge enhancment this, edge enhancment that, it's a real wonder most of you can ever enjoy anything!
I just watched my copy, and yes I saw it, but it wasn't so bad that it rendered the film unwatchable as some of you guys are suggesting. In fact, I was noticing the grain more than the edge enhancment. It's strange that a film shot with anamorphic lenses can have so much grain, but it was worse in some scenes than others, particularly darker scenes.
Sorry if this was harsh, but it just seems that a lot of people can be really spoiled about this subject that's all. The film never looked so good, so I say just relax and enjoy.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

There is quite a bit of EE in the film but that didn't stop me from watching it, or enjoying it. However, the plain fact is that this is the first film I have ever noticed EE in and this was not by pausing frames and nitpicking them but by watching the film on my 27" TV normally.

I thought that the whole idea of EE was to increase perceived sharpness of an image on a "normal" TV at the expense of real sharpness, which is particularly apparent when enlarged. What is the point of EE at all if it clearly distorts the perceived sharpness of the image, even on smaller displays?

 

[David Tolsky]

I wanted to pick up both Vista Series releases on the 15th but my wife has connections with Disney and I'm getting them for $8 a piece so I have to wait a few weeks However, I will say this about the original Tombstone release: it as one of the best Dolby Pro-Logic soundtracks I've ever heard. I'm really looking forward to the DTS track, but I am soon going to front projection DLP, and I am NOT looking forward to the EE.

 

[Frank]

To whoever did the over edge 'enhanced' transfer of this movie.
YOU'RE FIRED!
The only way I can enjoy this DVD is by taking off my glasses.
Frank

 

[Kwang Suh]

I thought that the whole idea of EE was to increase perceived sharpness of an image on a "normal" TV at the expense of real sharpness, which is particularly apparent when enlarged. What is the point of EE at all if it clearly distorts the perceived sharpness of the image, even on smaller displays?

Well, the thing is, the picture can actually be improved by edge enhancement. However, too much EE is the problem. They're REALLY cranking it up - so much that halos form. It is entirely possible (and, I'm sure, done by more competent people) to EE a picture without generating the halos.

 

[Sean Oneil]

Well, the thing is, the picture can actually be improved by edge enhancement

You CAN NOT add detail to an image like that. All you have is the detail which is captured in the initial telecine scan, and that's it.

 

[Kwang Suh]

Who said it adds detail?

 

[Carlo_M]

Seriously, people are of varying sensitivity to EE. I can see it if I look for it, but while I was caught up in the movie (hadn't seen it in years) I didn't notice it. If I look for it while watching the movie, I can see it (no need to freeze frame) but whilst "caught up in the moment" I don't really notice it at all.

The DH3 transfer is another story (esp. the original DVD release).

 

[Bjoern Roy]

Dome (and all other sceptics),
after your 'blissfully ignorant' post above, i could act rather offended and play the 'you are clueless' game, but that wouldn't serve anyone. So let me just try to open your eyes on EE a bit more.

Quote:

I am not selling anything. (Eh, want to have a bridge? ) The problem is, that its not so easy to get different transfers of the same movie that differ considerable EE wise. Often, rereleases use the same transfer. Or the EE is the same in both and they only differ in compression artefacts, like with the recent Mask of Zorro SE. There is another comparison in the guide, though, the PAL vs NTSC 'Enemy of the State'. The PAL has less EE at least in one dimension. If you go to my page, you can also read my Phantom Manance review. There are comparisons between the NTSC version, the NTSC deleted scenes, the PAL version and the NTSC trailer. That should be a good example to see different amount of ringing on the same footage.
Here is a further comparison of Die Hard 3 that i hadn't posted yet. Maybe this can help to convince you...
[Moderators: please don't change these included pictures into links. Its easier to digest if explanation and pics are visible at once. Thanks.]
This is the frame that is analyzed with the outline of the crop highlighted.
Link Removed
These arrows indicate the areas of interest for my comments below.
Link Removed
Now, the picture below shows 3 different transfers of the same scene. The one on the left is from the old DH3 transfer, which is one of the worst of all time. The middle one is the one from the new DH3 SE transfer, which is improved in all areas except EE, where it has less in the vertical dimension, but even more in the horizontal. The one on the right is from the DH3 trailer on the new SE, which is shamefully by far the best.
Link Removed
In the little Area of Interest pic above, i marked a few horizontal edges with a red arrow. Note how the vertical ringing/EE at these horizontal edges is by far the worst on the old DH3, quite improved on the new DH3, but even better still on the trailer. Look at the big black halos at every bright horizontal line in the stairs. Note how the bright smoke is seperated from the stairs with a huge black/white halo on the old DH3. Its much thinner on the new DH3, almost gone and very thin on the trailer.
I marked a few vertical edges with blue arrows. Note how the horizontal ringing/EE at these vertical edges produces the widest and strongest halos on the new DH3 transfer. Its quite a bit better on the old DH3 almost a non-issue on the trailer. How strong the black/white halos are at vertical edges in the new DH3 transfer can be seen best at the yellow arrow. Look at the fat black shadow that is casted into the womens jacket.
The horizontal lines on the wall that i marked with the green arrow show the difference in vertical detail between the 3 versions. The trailer has detailed refined lines. On the new DH3 transfer, the lines are quite a bit more blurry, less refined, which indicates quite a bit of vertical filtering. The old DH3 transfer is a desaster. Not only are the lines fat and undefined, but the lines are also heavily jagged, indicating a lot of aliasing in the transfer. Note that this is NOT due to the fact that the old transfer is non-anamorphic. A good non-anamorphic transfer could have easily stored the vertical detail that is captured in the new DH3 transfer. It would have had problems storing the vertical detail of the trailer, though.
The trailer looks like film, the new DH3 transfer looks like a TV with SVM full throttle and sharpness to max, and the old DH3 transfer looks worse than most VHS tapes.
I hope this post helped to convince you at least a bit that EE is NOT only a mindgame of the videophile community.
Best regards
Bjoern "ROY"

 

[Chris Maynard]

Geeezz Bjoern!
I post my agreement with you on this title and not a single comment?

 

[PhilipG]

Well, there we have it, ladies and gentlemen, the definitive good response. Nice work, Bjoern (Mr ROY!).
P.S. Please update your site once in a while; it's terrific, but we want more!

 

[Sean Oneil]

Kwang, if it is not adding detail, then in what way is it improving the image? If you enjoy a 'sharp' look, then you should be the one who has the option to turn up the sharpness control on your TV set, and it should not be forced into the DVD transfer. You can add sharpness at the user end by turning up the sharpness control, however, turning down the sharpness control will not eliminate EE.
I just don't feel that EE in any way improves an image. If they want it sharper, then they should do another telicine transfer to resolve more detail instead of trying to create the illusion of more detail, That's all

 

[Bjoern Roy]

Sorry Chris :b
i was kinda exhausted at 3am after i finished my reply to Dome's post.
Usually, i would say "glad we are in agreement" or such a thing. But the fact is, that i am really bummed that this title passes even your tolerance threshold. Sorry to hear that, especially since you seem to like the movie as much as i do :frowning:
Now, where is that huge, enormous red marker and calender...
All the best
Bjoern

 

[Kwang Suh]

Kwang, if it is not adding detail, then in what way is it improving the image? If you enjoy a 'sharp' look, then you should be the one who has the option to turn up the sharpness control on your TV set, and it should not be forced into the DVD transfer. You can add sharpness at the user end by turning up the sharpness control, however, turning down the sharpness control will not eliminate EE.

I just don't feel that EE in any way improves an image. If they want it sharper, then they should do another telicine transfer to resolve more detail instead of trying to create the illusion of more detail, That's all

First off:

EE != Adding Detail. I don't know why you're thinking EE adds details. It does nothing of the sort.

It "improves" the image by sharpening. That's what EE does.

I guarantee you 99% of your DVDs have some EE applied to them. Like I said, it is entirely possible to apply EE without inducing ANY artifacts. Obviously we have mad scientists doing some of the enhancing.

As for just using what was given on the telecine, you'd have some pretty awful transfers then. Things like color correction, scratch removal, contrast and brightness control are done after the telecine in the digital domain.

 

[Chris Maynard]

Usually, i would say "glad we are in agreement" or such a thing. But the fact is, that i am really bummed that this title passes even your tolerance threshold. Sorry to hear that, especially since you seem to like the movie as much as i do

You must have been really tired because you obviously misread my post. This title does not pass my tolerance threshold.

 

[Clinton McClure]

The EE is so bad on this one, I almost wish I had kept my original copy.

The only way I can enjoy this DVD is by taking off my glasses.

I'll have to try that. Maybe the 1 1/2 images will go back to just 1.

 

[Bjoern Roy]

Chris,
no, no! My wording must have been bad, sorry. The 'stupid germans trying to talk proper english' syndrom
I understood that you thought the EE on this title was too much. What i meant is:
I know that you usually scratch your head, when i complain about EE on most titles. So the event that the both of us agree that its just too much on a DVD would normally warrent an "glad that we agree" comment.
But the fact is that i am usually happy for you that you are not as easy bothered by EE (i even envy that) and i meant that i am sorry that this title is even too much for you, especially since you like the title as much as i do.
I should have probably said: "But the fact is, that i am really bummed that this title has so much EE that it is even above your tolerance threshold."
I hope it makes more sense now.
Regards
Bjoern

 

[Sean Oneil]

"If they want it sharper, then they should do another telicine transfer to resolve more detail instead of trying to create the illusion of more detail"

My quote was meant to stress solely the issue of real sharpness and detail pulled in the original telecine. I don't know how you interpreted it to mean that color correction and other aspects of doing a video transfer should be ignored?
In any case, it sounds like we mostly agree on the subject, except for the fact that I believe adding sharpness to a transfer does not make it look better, and you believe that it does. Fair enough?

 

[Kwang Suh]

My quote was meant to stress solely the issue of real sharpness and detail pulled in the original telecine. I don't know how you interpreted it to mean that color correction and other aspects of doing a video transfer should be ignored?

Well, the telecine is not the be all and end all of detail. Stuff like color correction, brightness, contrast tweaking all involve some information change/loss. So, why do we all not want at least some EE, when we don't like it when we don't have enough shadow detail? Both involve some sort of manipulation.

Going back to EE, I think the main problem is that these DVD producers are taking a whole film and applying the same set of EE parameters on every single frame of the movie. That's why films like TPM have scenes with no visible EE artifacts, while the next scene is chock full of them. They're not adjusting the parameters dynamically.