am a new svs sub owner (1 Viewer)

[George_W_K]

Hey Ronneil, are you still checking in on your thread?

Did you get it, did you get it, did you get it?

I'll be getting mine tomorrow.

 

[Craig Chase]

Robb - Well spoken as usual. I have spent some time reading the DIY forum here, and have talked to a lot of guys on Kyle's forum at Acoustic-Visions. To date, I have yet to see one SVS/Hsu/Velodyne guy post "Do you realize with the 50 hours you have into this sub in building it, plus the extra tools you had to get, you could have purchased a PB2+ had you worked 50 hours of overtime, with money left over ?"

And for someone to do so would be in poor taste.

Ronneil ... Congrats again.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>To date, I have yet to see one SVS/Hsu/Velodyne guy post "Do you realize with the 50 hours you have into this sub in building it, plus the extra tools you had to get, you could have purchased a PB2+ had you worked 50 hours of overtime, with money left over ?"

And for someone to do so would be in poor taste.

 

[Dustin B]

I should know better by now, but here's my two cents. Ignoring Alex and his giving DIYers a bad name.

Actual total costs on my two sub projects I've completed so far.

http://dustin.bunnyhug.net/cost.php

http://dustin.bunnyhug.net/twincost.php

I'm very confident my Tempest would compete quite well with an SVS PC Ultra. One of the Twins wouldn't match a PCi but it wouldn't be that far behind.

The Tempest was built 3 years ago. With Creative Sound Solutions now in existance, knowing I don't have to bother with the threaded rod and the experience I have from the first two projects I'm sure I could build a Tempest based sub for less than $700CDN($520USD including all shipping costs and taxes).

As for competing with the PCi today.

http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=Shiva
http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=4FP
http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SUB250RF

Total cost (assuming same construction material costs as the twins) just over $600CDN($450USD including all shipping costs and taxes). This sub will be very very close to a 20-39PCi if the right enclosure is used.

If you don't have the tools and desire SVS and Hsu are the better option when dealing with smaller subs (if you're in the US, in Canada the price differences become large enough that you can justify the extra effort DIY requires). However for less than $100 more than a smaller 12" based sub you can move to a 15" sub that can compete with the SVS Ultra (granted it will be more than twice the size of an Ultra). Here is were the big value of DIY starts to come in (even if you don't have a lot of desire). But there are 2 caveats, you have the tools and you're willing to put the time in.

A company with the time and resources to do proper measurements and protyping will get the last 5% of performance out of a sub that your typical DIYer won't be able too. But the DIYer can build a larger enlcosure (260L for my Tempest vs ~100L for a 20-39PCi) with more porting (6" vs 4") and a driver with significantly more displacement ability(2.55L for my Tempest vs ~1.5L for a PCi) for over $100USD less, making that last 5% a very moot point.

As for the time arguments. I wish I had a job where I could just show up and work extra hours and get payed overtime. For the majority of people it doesn't work that way. A lot of us also enjoy the time we spend with the project, more like recreation than work. Excuses to buy tools are always welcome, and the tools will definatly be of use after the project is complete.

Like Jack and some others here I'd never push some one without the tools and a little desire to attempt DIY. Internet direct is a better option. However if you have the tools (or access to them) and a little desire DIY is well worth the time put in. Especially the more extreme you go.

 

[Craig Chase]

Dustin - I came up with about $500 delivered with mounting hardware... etc... About $130 less than the 20-39 PCi ... or $80 if you wait for the B stock, which seems to pop up a couple of times per month.

Some of those designs are really impressive...

And thanks for an excellent post !

 

[Dustin B]

Favorite example of extreme DIY.

http://www.geocities.com/pnwright3/Gemini_subs.html

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-190

18 x Dayton DVC 15" drivers = $2250
shipping = guessing at about $200
amp = whatever decent pro amp you can get $500-$1000 (infinite baffle subs need very little power)
EQ = $125-$500
building materials = $250 (I'm sure it wasn't this much)

Total cost $3325-$4200.

A B4+ has ~8L of displacement ability. The above linked IB sub has >40L. This isn't saying the B4+ isn't one of, if not the most potent commercial home sub on the market today. But if you have the ability, desire and appropriate room DIY can get ridiculous for comparitively little money.

 

[Craig Chase]

Dustin... Of course, you need a room that does not get used for anything else... or a really understanding wife...

And the way a properly tuned enclosure works, the B4+ would equal about 20L of IB air movement.. and two B4+ and a good pro amp, at about $6000 for everything...

Now.... the guy who CAN do an IB project like that deserves a lot of atta boys... but for me, with my wife's expectations on how it should look, that IB you described would run me about $40,000...

If you ever meet her, you will understand

 

[Robb Roy]

Dustin,

Thank you for your intelligent and productive (as usual) posts!

-Robb

 

[Craig Chase]

Robb... He is good... and I bet he could build an 18 driver IB system...

 

[Dustin B]

Considering the B4+ is underported (although who cares with what it's capable of in a typical room) I think figuring it to be the equivalent of a 20L IB is a bit optimistic. Especially at the bottom of the last octave where the B4+ would be well below it's tuning point.

As for SAF with an IB. I think the appropriate adjacent space is the much much bigger concern. Zero space taken up in the room vs a 200lbs 200L box. Even with the stunning wood finishes I doubt many decorators would choose the B4+ over an IB

ThomasW built an IB that uses 12 Adire Shiva drivers (18L Vd). Here's a quote from his site on what he dubbed 12 Shiva's dancing.


Flat to 13hz and would be loafing along at 100dB.

 

[Craig Chase]

Dustin, maybe this will help... the adjacent room is our dining room... I once mentioned the IB idea... talked to our contractor... and the $40,000 was not a joke...it was the price... for 8 18 inch drivers, all the bracing, labor, finishing, divorce lawyer, plus continued spousal support...

 

[dave alan]

My favorite example of DIY:

here

 

[Craig Chase]

Dave - I remember reading that article years ago... I did the math on labor, and bought two Velodyne FSR-18's instead...

That project would have taken me a couple of weeks...

and Ron ... that was one ugly subwoofer... sorry man... but sheesh !

 

[Wayne Ernst]

Well, after reading through this thread and sticking my neck in here every now and then, I can summarize sub building - whether it be commercial-built or D.I.Y. built, down into one word: iteration.

If you are building subs commercially, with iteration, the more subs you build, the better you should become at the task. Also, the product, after time, should be perfected even better.

As a do-it-yourselfer, iteration is also important. While iteration would benefit the build process, it's very unlikely that you'll build enough subs to really perfect the building process to a high degree.

Each version has its own place. Heck, it's hard enough for us gents to deal with the wives and getting new equipment. Most wives would be quite unhappy to live with an unfinished sub for the next six months - until we have enough energy to pull it back outside and apply some veneer to it.

For those who desire a swmewhat "custom" look to go along with the performance of their subs, it appears SVS does an excellent job of providing several different finish options - including stain matching to a current piece of finished wood in your home. Plus, a wife might be more understanding of you if you want to pick out a nice color for the sub and ensure it isn't a tube-type sub which wives can tend to hate.

Personally, I like D.I.Y. for myself because I'm never really satisified with what I have. I don't have $700 every 6 months to lay out to purchase a new sub. However, I can get my hands on $200 or so every few months and this smaller amount is easier to approach my wife on when it comes to securing funds for the build process.

I'm tired ... not making much sense right now. Be good ... play safe. Singning out to get some rest.

 

[Dan Hine]

Tom,

You'll notice I said "cars, I believe?" That means I was not sure...I guess you missed that. Nevertheless, going through old threads that made me make the assumptions that I did I see that I was indeed mistaken. So I will apologize about that.




Yes he does speak directly to Alex there but I believe that definitely says what you think he didn't say. Say I build a stellar sub that knocks people's socks off and looks great. Well, apparently unless I package it up and get it reviewed professionaly my sub is a joke...


To finish up...

YES!!!! I did say some things that were inaccurate and made me look silly. Oh well, don't we all? But my overall issue was that I just get ill over seeing Ron and Tom made out to look like Jesus of Bass here to save all mankind. And Ron loving to play the part. Yeah, SVS makes a good product and backs it up with good support. But they aren't the only game in town and it bothers me the kind of fanboy support they get from people who haven't even heard one while other guys can't make a dent in the world even though they offer as good or better products (depending on your needs) with incredible service too. It bothers me almost as much as Alex making DIY out to be the best thing for everyone...uggg...maybe it's just because it's exam time that everyone is grating so much on me.

 

[Alex_P]

yearn... too much bible talking in here...

To sum it up...
SVS isn't the best... they r good but not best... too many kids here think SVS is "god of bass" as I recalled... Mike SJ said "ppl is willing to get kill over it" Totally brain washed... Just plain rediculous... I still stand on my statement that my tempest is better than SVS 20-39 model... That's me... Then again, you SVS fan club members will get all hurt and cry... I for once never said DIY is the best for everyone... Obviously, DIY route is not for Craig and Mike SJ and many others cuz' they portrait SVS as "god of bass"... *PATHETIC*

Alex,

P.S. After seeing Ron and Tom portrait them in this post, I think they're pretty cocky...just doesn't seem like what others are saying... Being nice to customers and pretend to refer customers to go for other products is just another marketing tactic... In the end, they just want your money... That's how businesses are...

Ooopsss... I just *fart*... Wow, it's louder than the SVS B4+

 

[ChrisBee]

Alex

I'd like to see your frequency response graph and some indication of your Tempest sub's maximum output. But don't go hurting yourself! :wink:

It shouldn't take you more than half an hour to produce and post us a hand drawn response graph to within a couple of dBs.

The RadioShack SPL meter and downloaded tones from your computer are close enough for publication on here. So there's no need for anything fancy to get in your way.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

ChrisBee

PS: I was building large folded horn bass cylinders nearly 40 years ago. Just couldn't get the roll-surround, long-throw, low resonance drivers in those days. No TS figures, no flared ports and no software either. My last project was a mirror matched pair of 20Hz (16Hz-3dB) 6th order series bandpass boxes BTW.
I'm afraid those took me two whole days. But I WAS designing as I went along and waiting for the glue to dry.

Anybody could throw a decent cylinder sub together in a couple of hours these days.(with only a Chinese electric router, simple hand tools and a length of Sonotube)

But can you? :b

 

[Craig Chase]

Dan - I am in total agreement with the idea that the DIY route is a great idea for those who can spend the time and have the knack for it. Some of the subwoofers on Kyle's site are just plain beautiful. When reading about these projects, it was not unusual for a guy to have 100 hours tied up in the finished project. The mere fact that he gets to point at a great job and say "I did that myself" is laudable.

This is not about you, you come across as a pretty good guy (I am still baffled as to how a sealed Tempest beats a sealed Tumult... but that is a minor issue)

Alex... Where to start with you...

1. After today I will own one SVS subwoofer, a B4+. I will also own two Hsu VTF-3 Mark II's, a Rocket UFW-10 (to be replaced with a pair of UFW-12's) and an Acoustic Visions Denali. My admiration for SVS (or any other company) is based on experience. The Denali is basically a DIY project that Kyle sells for a reasonable price of $1800. The Tumult, two Passive Radiators, and amp can be purchased for $1050 plus shipping. You still need the hardware and the enclosure. As it has fairly close performance to the PB2+, I have a pretty good idea of how a true DIY project stacks up to the PB2+.

And, If I thought the Denali was a superior design to the PB2+, I would get the Everest (over the B4+), but the PB2+ is a superior overall product, so I ordered the B4+ instead.

2. Neither Mike nor I have ever portrayed (that is the word, not portrait) SVS as the GODS of bass. They make an excellent product, yes.

3. ENOUGH WITH THE NAME CALLING... You started this by trying to belittle Ronneil, and what you have done a pretty good job of is to make the DIY community look bad. Fortunately, guys like Dustin, Wayne, Dan, Mike, and Chris Bee have been the voices of reason. Calling others pathetic does nothing but diminish your stature.

4. I do appreciate your honesty in your saying that the way your subwoofer looks is irrelevant to you. Most DIY guys are very much proud of the job of fit and finish of his project.

5. Regarding your assault on Tom V. and Ron S., yes, there is nothing they can say that you won't attack. If they recommend their product, they are money grabbers. If they defend their company, they are shills. If they recommend another company's product, it is marketing. Rather than attack these dastardly fellows in print, let's get them in the arena of the business world. I have a GREAT business idea.

Since you can build a product for 1/2 the cost that "blows their subwoofers away", Why don't you build this subwoofer for $300 that just KILLS the 20-39 PCi ?

I will not only test it for you, but, if it does trounce the SVS, I will invest with you and we will become best friends and will work together to dominate the subwoofer industry.

The business model will be simple, We will sell this subwoofer for $499 plus shipping, and split the profits 50-50. I can get the manufacturing space from my brother for a very reasonable price. This should make us around $100 each for each subwoofer sold...

One thing though, Our customers WILL want a good looking product... but we can work through that...

Let's do it, you would LOVE owning a business, there is nothing quite like working for yourself.

PLUS - Then ALEX would be the KING of subwoofers. I would be happy just being your silent partner.

Think about it... I am always looking for new businesses.

Craig

ps... Dustin, Cool stuff on the IB designs...

 

[Michael__M]

This is my favorite. What do you think, SVS is some kind of non-profit organization here to save the world with killer bass. Of course they want your money. Going the extra mile and taking care customers is what brings you more money. They are not bastards because they want to make a buck. That is why they exist.

This is long enough already. Hope you guys understand my point of view.

Michael Moon

 

[Wayne Ernst]

But, at least, SVS is a private company and they don't have a bunch of "stuffed shirts" commanding large salaries to sit behind a desk, price their products at high levels ... while cutting deals with Chinese manufacturers to employ child labor to make subwoofer boxes for $1.00 a piece. Whew ... that was a mouthful.

As I've indicated before, I don't own an SVS product. However, a quick trip to some audio stores and I can clearly see how the SVS product excells. I can find "ho-hum" $500 subs from Velodyne at Circuit City which are pretty much useless for the price. Also, take the $1,300 Mirage from Tweeter - what a rip-off. Clearly, SVS has a product to stand up at every price point.

The SVS formula appears to be one that is working well. Sure, we'd like a bit more convenience of being able to see and hear the product before purchasing it, but would we be able to afford another $1,000 just for that option? I think not.

As far as egos go, I only saw the cockiness appear when it was provoked. Some comments were made and SVS responded. They have a name and product to defend. Plus, they have to constantly watch their rear-view mirror so that another manufacturer doesn't sneak up on them with a better product - at less cost.

I'm not trying to make my post a "pro SVS" post, but just indicating what I see and how I perceive the product.