All amplifiers sound alike......... (2 Viewers)

[Jack Briggs]

And therein lies the problem. My money's on science.

Now, everyone: Seeing that this thread represents a classic dead end, is there much reason for it continuing?

 

[RobWil]

Probably not, although it does seem to be one of the more popular and lively discussions going on.
I'll second the motion, though.

subjectivist >

< objectivist

 

[Shane Martin]

Note: This area of the forum has been set up to discuss/debate the use of cables, interconnects and tweaks. It has not been set up to offer an opinion that has not been asked for. If a member asks which brand of interconnect, etc. to buy this does not give anyone the right to tell them not to buy them in the first place in that same thread. If the member asks you for your opinion on whether to buy a product or not then your opinion is welcome. Posts that are made for the sole purpose of offering an opinion that was not asked for will be deleted!

If Not I hope to make a post somewhere getting the response that is needed for this to occur and be enforced. Thread farting aka disrespect of this level should be dealt with not ignored like it is. Heck its not even enforced in the forum its made for..

 

[Jack Briggs]

Not sure what you're saying, Shane. Two sides are back-and-forthing in a thread that brings up the question of alleged sonic differences among electronics. Except for a few ever-so-slight cases, I don't see much here that warrants any sort of action. Are you talking about a thread in DIY? We can discuss Forum matters better via PM.

If you guys want to continue the thread, go ahead.

 

[Jonathan M]

Lee:

I just had a look a Cardas' site. There IS scientific evidence that suggests that speaker cables in particular perform differently. The tests in question don't really say all that much, though, considering the two wires of were of different gauges. Basic physics states they will measure differently. I'd be interested to see the same tests done with 10 gauge zip cord instead of the 12 gauge.

Ofcourse, the null difference test I gave in my last post is a simple way of testing the differences between amps and speaker cables etc. etc. It can easily show any changes in voltage occurring at the speaker terminals (thus any differences in the sound) whilst playing music or whatever takes your fancy.

If you REALLY want to know if amps can sound different, then you must remove the main flaw that ALL listening tests have - the listener. ABX tests minimize the other variables, and thus end up highlighting the flaws of the listeners hearing ability. Unfortunately, the listeners are often the main problem. They're clearly not good enough to hear consistent differences, and are obviously not good enough for folks such as yourselves who state you CAN hear differences between the amps. The above test sorts all of this out by removing the listener from the equation.

 

[Mark Davenport]

I would prefer this forum to be a DBT-ABX free zone like a lot of other audio forums. It makes a much calmer nicer time not that this isn't a good board or anything cause I enjoy it as well. Maybe have an audio theory forum for this type of stuff?

 

[RobWil]

The above test sorts all of this out by removing the listener from the equation.

Hmmmm...isn't the listener the one who really counts???
If a tree falls in the forest does it make any sound? I guess there's just air pressure exerted out into all directions.

 

[Chu Gai]

Shane:

I bet they don't give a rip. The only people asking for evidence is the objectivist crew. The subjectivist crew doesn't need a test to confirm what they just heard in their own system. Contrary to popular belief, we don't just pick up a copy of Stereophile and buy stuff blindly because they thought "it created a magical soundstage that added depth to my system".

Then why are you buying stuff blindly? Do you open an AQ website and look at the cable pictures?

And for Yogi, with regards to the mermaid...will this suffice?

 

[RobWil]

Maybe have an audio theory forum for this type of stuff?

How about here?? http://www.sciforums.com/

 

[Shane Martin]

Ok I guess I'm a sucker and will continue to beat the dead horse with Chu some more afterall this discussion isn't going to go anywhere so might as well drive it up some more.

Jack,
Ignore this thread because for once in a great moon this isn't the result of a threadjack. Do a search of that Anthem thread and see where it got "jacked" and then think about my statement some more. As with all of these threads this thread has 1 thing in comman: The 2 parties are budging and its going nowhere as usual. Why allow such discussion if its going to go the same way everytime? I think that's why Audio Asylum does this and why HT spot has done this. They know the objectivist opinion is out there and they know there are people who LIKE to threadjack to make their opinion known. They have started to ban folks and take control of their forum. This isn't a public organization you know.

Now onto Chu, if this was a game of Dungeons and Dragons you'd be level 100 with me on the skill beating a dead horse. Let's see:

Do you open an AQ website and look at the cable pictures?

You must think alot of us do that. Everything seems very white and black to you. Audio isn't a yes or no answer. Then again I guess it is to a person who looks at audio manuals from tests and forms his opinion about a company by reading their web site descriptions.

 

[Michael R Price]

I say we should keep the DBT/subjectivity type discussions, like this one they are very interesting. I'll stir it up some more with a few questions.

If you took a perfect amplifier and a $500 receiver there is a good chance I (and 90% of other people) could not tell them apart in a level matched blind test. Why? I don't know, does anyone else?

The thing about "damaged," "defective," or "not revealing enough" interests me... because by some accounts, an amplifier whose power supply drops under load, or maybe allows its output transistors to drop into a nonlinear region at low power levels, could be judged as a "defective" design? Do these defects just not matter because of feedback? Do they affect the sound? I don't know the answer myself.

I know of some elements in amplifier design that could theoretically affect the sound, but so far I haven't found a proven test showing that those elements really matter. On the other hand I noticed such differences over time, in just using the amps normally. What's up with that?

 

[Jonathan M]

Hmmmm...isn't the listener the one who really counts???

Indeed, that is the end result. However, we are discussing whether or not amplifiers all sound the same. Unfortunately, it has been observed that, at least with some people, that our hearing is prejudiced by other factors not associated with the actual sound (Air moving if you like) from the amplifier via the speakers. Some of these factors (Such as looks, features, how much something costs etc.) are important and should certainly be taken into account when making an amplifier purchase. This has nothing to do with whether they actually produce different sound.

The original poster asked for our opinions on the suggestion that all amplifiers sound the same. I offered a way to eliminate what is (IMO) the largest variable in the equation - who is listening.

Feel free to "Measure" the differences between amps with your ears. You should be aware, however, of just how bad your ears are (Low resolution, very low retention memory, poor frequency response, influenced greatly by other senses/perceptions etc.) compared to good quality measuring equipment.

 

[Shane Martin]

As you demand louder volumes, the lower powered, but audiophile amp, will choke. The Kenwood will do fine.

How do we know that the Kenwood can't handle a low ohm swing while the Audiophile amp is kept on chugging? I have 4 ohm speakers that dip into the 1 ohm range alot and cause some improperly designed amps(that can't handle the low impedence) into clipping. Power #'s to me mean very little. You can't say that a 200wpc Pioneer is necessarily better than a 100wpc bel canto(or other high end amp). Power is a factor I look at however its not the final choice. Sound is the key to me and I won't know that until I get the amp home in my own system. Now if you mean fairly efficient speakers like Klipsch's I'll probably side with you Chu then again a Klipsch buddy of mine has changed amps a few times because of the sound. He know likes his John Curl designed Parasound.

 

[RobWil]

Unfortunately, it has been observed that,at least with some people, that our hearing is prejudiced by other factors not associated with the actual sound (Air moving if you like) from the amplifier via the speakers.

"At least with some people".
Yeah, I know and some people buy deodorant (I don't) because advertising has convinced them that they smell, and they buy a certain toothpaste for whiter teeth, and they buy the clothing styles that are 'in' so as not to be thought of as 'different'. Do you use deodorant? Why...because you smell? How do you really know? Maybe you just think you do. Some people do fall for all the marketing and advertising hype. So since some people do you assume everyone does or what? Without knowing me you're telling me I'm one of those people? And you're not of course because you're enlightened. So it's your job to try and 'help' the rest of us poor brainwashed slobs who don't have a mind of our own.
I've been to college myself and learned all about all of that crap. I am the ultimate non-conformist. The only TV I watch are sporting events and when the commercials come on I mute them. I could give a rat's ass if my receiver said 'Joe's Discount Barn' on it and was made by Crapola. Yet, according to you, the only reason I think I hear a difference is because I'm an un-enlightened dumbass who sucks up all the hoopla.
I am the original poster and maybe it's YOUR ears that are bad. For all you know (which has to be fed to you with measurements and machines) I have superior hearing. Man you guys are arrogant! You probably couldn't tell the difference between Anchor Steam and Coor's Light unless someone proved it with a computer generated stat sheet.

Sooo...on a lighter note...how 'bout them Padres!

 

[Chu Gai]

Lee, I'm not slamming your amps...having a little bit of good natured fun maybe and certainly trying to be very technical and precise in my interpretations. I do think though it'd have been interesting to run those speakers with a SS amp and simply insert some tube processing within the chain. The 3.6's I'm sure will be spectacular. BTW, do you run those with a sub or not? You can be sure if I'm in Atlanta it will be my pleasure to take you up on your generous offer.

Hardly Shane. Simply point out if there was an error and give you the opportunity to correct it. Sloppy research goes nowhere.

[quote} You must think alot of us do that. Everything seems very white and black to you. Audio isn't a yes or no answer. Then again I guess it is to a person who looks at audio manuals from tests and forms his opinion about a company by reading their web site descriptions.

No Shane it's not black and white. But in the context of this thread there's very little gray. It gets gray when you want something apart from sound. Then it falls into personal preferences and the respective value each person places on a host of things. That's entirely different.

Maybe someday science will save your life Shane. Maybe it'll be someone else radiating you will yellow light.

I do hope this means that we still can go cow tipping BTW, is level 100 good?

 

[RobWil]

How about this Rob...let's say we take a relatively high power Kenwood amp and put it up against a low power, but audiophilish, amp. If we match the levels such that we'll be staying withing the performance specifications of the lower powered amp, I suspect your ability to audibly distinguish between the two would amount to chance. But here's the rub. As you demand louder volumes, the lower powered, but audiophile amp, will choke. The Kenwood will do fine.

Hmmmm... now THAT'S a little different scenario than we began with. I DO think you're making a little progress my friend! Well done!

 

[Jonathan M]

RobWil:

Without knowing me you're telling me I'm one of those people? And you're not of course because you're enlightened. So it's your job to try and 'help' the rest of us poor brainwashed slobs who don't have a mind of our own. I've been to college myself and learned all about all of that crap. I am the ultimate non-conformist. The only TV I watch are sporting events and when the commercials come on I mute them. I could give a rat's ass if my receiver said 'Joe's Discount Barn' on it and was made by Crapola. Yet, according to you, the only reason I think I hear a difference is because I'm an un-enlightened dumbass who sucks up all the hoopla. I am the original poster and maybe it's YOUR ears that are bad. For all you know (which has to be fed to you with measurements and machines) I have superior hearing. Man you guys are arrogant!

I never made any comments regarding how good your ears are, or how good mine are. I would think a qualified doctor should be the one with whom you consult on that matter.

You may indeed have far better hearing than I do - I really don't know, and it really doesn't matter. The fact is that no matter how good your hearing is, you are still prone to your perceptions and other senses interferring with the sound that the amp and speakers are producing. I assume that you accept this fact? (Ever seen a good ventriliquist in action?)

 

[RobertR]

I believe in order to notice differences you have to be hearing something that you are extremely familiar with...otherwise how are you going to notice if something is missing or added? That's something else these tests don't indicate. Certainly not all participants are intimately familiar with the recordings which I believe is a must for accurate results.

You seem to be assuming that people who participated in DBTs weren't familiar with the material they were listening to. Quite the contrary, they listened to their OWN recordings on their OWN systems.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

As you demand louder volumes, the lower powered, but audiophile amp, will choke.

Not really, you could use high efficiency speakers. I hate horns though, so don't invite me for the test if you use them.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

What does jitter have to do with amplifiers?

It is a very good example of an audio event where critical listeners can hear differences that were not measurable just a few years ago.

It is on the list of things subjectivists discovered that was posted earlier in the thread.

But I guess a troll doesn't want to read the whole discussion. :rolleyes