Acoustic Visions MRS-10 Subwoofer Review Thread (1 Viewer)

[Rory Buszka]

Sometimes I wonder if the benefits of XBL^2 are worth having when the higher price (due to Adire Audio XBL^2) licensing fees, no doubt) is taken into consideration. That subwoofer should be heaps cheaper than it is. That driver looks real similar to a driver I bought a few years back for $80, also built by Destijl, which was known as FRC Soundworks at the time. I'd imagine Kyle should have only needed to pay $90 for that driver at the most. Though that enclosure finish probably drives the price up there as well.

 

[Kyle Richardson]

Rory, show me a 10" driver with those specs currently on the market for $80.

I suppose labor is also free. Whatever.:rolleyes

 

[Edward J M]

Yes, that driver retails for $180 at a few DIY/Parts websites. While I'm sure Kyle gets a volume discount, I sincerely doubt he only pays $90 for the driver.

I really don't think Kyle has a ton of profit built into this unit. Considering it would cost the consumer about $440 (shipped) to buy all the components, and then assemble them (and labor isn't free because time is money), the finished product - built, tested, badged, packaged, and shipped to your door - starts to look pretty attractive in comparison.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Rory Buszka]

Well, the driver I was talking about is the Blueprint Drivers 1001 (from back in the day). It has an RMS power handling of 250w, an Xmax of 12mm, the same Venezuela frame, a rubber surround, and a thick poly cone. It also had an Fs of 18.75 Hz, and in a 1 cubic foot sealed box, with the 250w Parts Express plate amp with the built-in EQ curve, it could have output to 20 Hz. (-3dB) It was $80 shipped. Probably the only thing it doesn't have is XBL^2. What I'm getting at is that Adire Audio really seems to be charging a big premium for XBL^2 products, and I was questioning if the benefits of XBL^2 warranted the higher price Adire now charges for the woofer.

Yeah, labor isn't free, and as I said before, that piano black finish probably isn't cheap either.

 

[Kyle Richardson]

There's quite a large different between a driver that has an Xmax of 12mm compared to 18mm.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Hmm, Kyle, that's got me thinking. I've noticed that this driver from PE is also 10" but is only $29.35. Care to explain, pal?

Oh, nice review, Ed...your methodology seems beyond reproach. Looks like a really nice sub in a compact package. As far as price, I cartainly wouldn't waste my time putting it together myself when I can have Kyle do it for not much more.

 

[Kyle Richardson]

LOL Jack. Nice seeing you around.

 

[Rory Buszka]

I see people enjoying making a turkey out of me (Thanksgiving having been last Thursday), but that still doesn't account for the extra cost added to the woofer by the XBL^2 licensing fee.

You say similar drivers retail for about $180. The Titanic MKIII has an Xmax of 18.7mm and retails for $150, and is about as robust as the SX10 driver from CSS. So, we could gather that XBL^2 licensing fees add nearly $30 to a driver. That's quite a bit. I have to wonder if that extra $30 is warranted for a technology whose value at this price point is highly questionable.

 

[David Bikeman]

Rory,
Just one question and I believe I already know the answer but I could be wrong. Have you ever run a real business? i.e., not something that is a part-time hobby related endeavor.

David

 

[Rory Buszka]

Actually, I have never run the former or the latter, but for this discussion I don't see how that's relevant. The subject of my posts deal with simply exploring cost-cutting measures, and how the inclusion of XBL^2 technology (and its attendant licensing fees) might have caused the price to be higher than the SVS 10" sub when a sub aimed at this price point probably didn't need the sort of esoteric benefits afforded by XBL^2. People in this thread should quit taking things so personally. I wasn't attacking Kyle by saying he's irresponsible, I was just hoping to explore this some more.

 

[Edward J M]

The Titanic MKIII looks like a pretty serious woof, certainly. But none of us can really draw definitive conclusions about how those two drivers would match-up just by looking at the Xmax. In order to really compare them, a bench test for a variety of performance parameters would be needed.

Failing that, installation of the two drivers in the same enclosure (sealed, vented, PR'd, etc.) and performance testing for FR, dynamics, distortion, power compression, etc. would also be telling.

Regardless, I don't see why the benefits of a technology which provides a linear motor strength over the entire excursion range (hardly an esoteric concept, really) would be wasted at this (or any other) price point.

 

[Kyle Richardson]

Any XBL licensing fees in this sub are very, very minimal at most and really shouldnt be worried about.

 

[dave alan]

Rory,

Manufacturers who pay the XBl^2 license fee aren't generally duped by BS and certainly don't pay the fee because XBl^2 is a household trademark that every consumer wants.

In fact, most consumers have never heard the term, and if they do, have no clue what it means.

Common sense would then dictate the conclusion that a manufacturer readily pays the fee to enjoy the benefits of the technology.

That would be much lower distortion at high excursions...a feature that's really priceless if you're designing a sealed subwoofer and you care how it performs.

I agree that your question is a simple one, and I read no ill will in it and that it somehow caused a bit of over reaction.

The simple answer to the simple question is...positively yes, you bet the fee is worth the benefits.

X-Max is meaningless. Useful X-Max is not, especially when designing a sealed, EQ'd subwoofer...and...more especially if you plan to hand it over to Ed Mullen, knowing he's gonna scrutinize the output of the sub within distortion limits and tell the world the results.

So...what's the fee worth? I can only guess the man hours, prototype and testing costs, and I'm fully aware of the patent process costs. It would also be a guess as to the tooling and quantity purchase costs to make the product available so that a prospective licensee would even be interested in paying for the technology.

In the end, the fee is worth what a licensee will pay for it, pure and simple. It's no different than deciding to buy a better amp or a piano gloss box.

You factor those costs, determine a selling price and hope your efforts are accepted buy the consumer.

Kyle's design process for the MRS-10 had clear goals in mind and he obviously carefully chose each of the many parts involved from the thousands of available choices.

I think he made excellent choices and has produced a fantastic little sub for the money. Many will agree, many others will disagree. Comparing it to a much larger, lower WAF, different audience/app sub makes little sense, while comparing it to a more similar product may reveal the merits of the added XBl^2 license cost.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

With a component such as this, you merely need to look at its capabilities/attributes and judge whether it's worth it to you. Making guesses as to the intrinsic worth of one component and its attendant "licensing fees" with very little information to go on seems silly.


Indeed.

 

[DanWiggins]

Rory,

Perhaps I can clarify... You see, I get the royalties myself, so I'm aware of what they are. In this case, it's well under $10 for the driver. And I'd like to see another 10" driver that performs as well as that particular 10" does, for under $200. Because I can assure you it doesn't exist.

And yes, I know what the Blueprint 1001 was, and what the Titanic Mark III is as well, and how they both perform compared to all our raw drivers (OEM and DIY offerings).

My guess is that a lot of Kyle's cost is in the piano black finish. That is NOT a cheap cabinet to make, I assume! The finish is not like the "piano black" claimed by many other suppliers; I've seen it, it's a lot deeper, smoother, and higher gloss than just about anything this side of a Yamaha piano. Most simply use 2-3 layers of automotive black paint and be done with it. Kyle's cabinet looks like a true piano lacquer finish.

Considering the price, performance, finish, and package size it looks like Kyle's hit a winner.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[Kyle Richardson]

I didnt want to hint at what I thought they were when I said "Any XBL licensing fees in this sub are very, very minimal at most and really shouldnt be worried about.", but figured they were in that under $10 range and were basically considered insignifigant with the overall pricing. I'm glad you could confirm that fact, Dan.

 

[GrahamT]

Good job as always Ed. I knew what to expect from this sub. It is a good example of the benefits of XBL2. Proof of this is that it is being compared to an all out performance 10" sub like the SVS. It is obvious that more tooling goes into an XBL2 motor than a normal overhung and you get what you pay for IMO. Now I want to see some XBL2 tweeters!

 

[Rory Buszka]

How about a tweeter you can use from 1000 Hz to 22,000 Hz, and handles some decent power? Then we can use some of the newer 8" drivers that are out these days.

 

[Brian Bunge]

Rory,

Dan's already working on XBL^2 tweeters and I believe with the capabilities of fairly low XO points.

Concerning the cost of this XBL^2 driver, I know the dealer cost of this driver vs. the Titanic MKIII 10 and I'd take this driver over the MKIII any day.

I say this half kidding but also 100% serious, but until you've heard a low distortion driver like the Tumult you wouldn't understand.

 

[Rory Buszka]

Does the Stryke AV12 count? It's widely recognized as one of the cleanest-sounding bass drivers available. I have one as my main sub, with 500 watts behind it.