A Song of Ice & Fire Discussion (1 Viewer)

[Joe D]

George knew what he was doing, that's for sure.

It's going to be very interesting to see how all the different threads wrap up.

 

[Garrett Lundy]

Its not just you. The series is filled with building proportions which are impossibly huge; a wall of ice 700' tall and as long as the country is wide, Winterfell (The Stark castle) has curtain walls 120'+ high, Harrenhall has walls 400' high, etc etc. Nobody ever has trouble talking to people on the ground, arrows always reach the top, and people in nooses are always identifiable on the ground.

Also you have the issue of weight, where Sam, who weighs '20 stone' is described in such a fashion that you'd think of somebody in the 375-400lb range, but 20 stone is only 240lbs (1 stone = 14lbs)

So either Martin has some spacial issues, or measurements in Westeros have very little to do with Earth.

 

[Holadem]

Yup. It is distances that I found weird. At some point, Westeros was said to span 10,000 leagues from North to South. Huh?! That's 30,000 miles... more than Earth's circumference. Which would be fine if travel times on horseback reflected that distance but they do not. I think GRRM has his miles and leagues confused. And even then 10,000 miles is still bigger than Westeros seems to be, I think.

I think Sam's description is OK though, if he is average height and fat, 240lbs makes for one rotund fellow.

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H

 

[Garrett Lundy]

When did they say that? I've been waiting for the key to appear on the Westeros map(s). The Citadel (online fansite) has most people talking like its the size of the UK, while Wikipedia has it larger than South America.

 

[Holadem]

"Jon knew the song, though it was strange to hear it here, in a shaggy hide tent beyond the Wall, ten thousand leagues from the red mountains and warm winds of Dorne. "

A Storm of Swords, page 96 of the paperback edition (Bantam Spectra). First Jon chapter of the book I think.

When did they say that? I've been waiting for the key to appear on the Westeros map(s). The Citadel (online fansite) has most people talking like its the size of the UK, while Wikipedia has it larger than South America.

Despite GRRM exagerations, the later is far more consistent with this story than the former.

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H

 

[Josh Dial]

Like Holadem, I figured I would resurrect this thread, rather than start a new one.

I'm rereading the series again, partly in hopes of meeting Martin when he comes to a convention here in Calgary in a month

I must say that I personally enjoyed A Feast for Crows quite thoroughly. I loved the "one-offs" POV characters (and the limited-use characters such as Damphair), and I really enjoyed getting some meaty details about life in Dorne, the Iron Isles, and even Bravos to some extent.

 

[Jim_C]

I just wish he would finish the next book. The wait is killing me. I liked Feast but felt he spent too much time telling us what the characters were wearing or eating. I love that he gets detailed because it really brings the world to life but I thought he went a little too far in Feast.

 

[Michael Warner]

I've come to the sinking realization that Martin no longer knows where to go with this series. He's done other work in the interim but just can't seem to sit down and write this storyline out any further. Sad to say I fully expect a Robert Jordan type coda to bring this wholly engrossing and wonderful tale to a crashing halt.

 

[Joe D]

I keep telling myself I should only read finished series. Maybe Dance will come out in 09.

 

[Jim_C]

Old thread, I know....


I can't seem to figure out how to link to a specific post I made in the TV section so I'll repost it here:


http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html


Martin has finally given us a release date for A Dance with Dragons!!

 

[mattCR]

Ok, so I have just finished Storm of Swords. A few thoughts so far (I start on Feast For Crows tonight)


TONS of SPOILERS


* GRR should have an editor who can ask him "Can you use a phrase other then "she bites her lip" ?

I admit, I see I am in the common crowd; Danny, Tyrion, Bran, Arya are all the interesting characters. After Storm, I even found myself sympathizing with the Jamie as the way he portrayed whether or not "duty" and doing the right thing are not always the same. I have not read the GRR forums (and have no interest; I will let them speculate on their things as they are far more "into" this then I am willing to be) but I love the books so far but have a few observations only from the perspective of someone fresh to it:


* Of all the characters presented, Tyrion is probably the most interesting read .. I found the contrast at his hearing to be interesting, even when he could have confessed as a lie to save his life he would not; whereas Eddard Stark was willing to tell the lie and take the black to save his fool of a daughter (supposedly) but I don't think he was stupid enough to buy that from the beginning, he had to know Sansa would be more valuable as a hostage; so in the end, he chose his life and a lie. In fact, outside of Jon, I pretty well dislike most of the Starks. We'll see, Bran is young so you never know.. Rob was an arrogant fool and while the Red Wedding was completely stunning - I can't say I thought "damn, I love this character" because I really never came to care for Rob. And Catelyn deserved to die. Out of all the purported "good" characters, her character always struck me as the most potentially evil; she worked manipulation from the beginning, she just wasn't very good at it. And while she thought she had a sharp game of how Rob should rule, she basically fleshed herself out as Cersei only slightly less bright and a bit more likable. I found the two to be a lot the two sides of the same coin. And, while Sansa became a bit more likable, she may be one of the dumbest characters in the book, from the get go; a character who feigns goodness but tells lies repeatedly for themselves to seemingly put themselves "in the right position"... she's a bit like Littlefinger, but maybe 1/4 as bright. I do like Jon a good deal; I see the concept of the story being played out there as "earning" his way, I have liked that storyline a good deal.



* The Red Wedding does go down as one of the more shocking moments in any book I've ever read; it came completely out of left field. It was a bold, bold stroke by an author confident in his story over the characters.. there are not a lot of authors I would put into the category of "willing to kill main characters".. GRR is in that (very) small group. Kudos to him.

* I'm of course rooting for Danny's storyline, so I'm glad I get to go Feast for Crows then straight to Dance with Dragons, should be a good back to back. I find her portrayal as a "liberator" of sorts to be interesting.. and potentially compelling as we go on.


* Stannis may surround himself with some people of ill, but I tend to like his character, and especially Davos (The Onion Knight, right?)


* The other shocker for me in the book was the appearance of Shay.. and what happened at the end, which I knew had to happen the moment she appeared, but damn.

 

[Marshall Alsup]

Wow, old thread. I have a post in this thread from 2003 Anyway, new book coming out Tuesday. I cant wait. Hoping to get it at midnight tomorrow on my Kindle.

 

[Josh Dial]

Finished "A Dance with Dragons," and I was quite impressed. I place it just behind "A Storm of Swords." It's very much a companion to "A Feast for Crows," which is, of course, understandable considering the development of the two novels.


Not much happens, yet Martin finds a way to make a lot happen, if that makes any sense.

 

[Adam_S]

Finished the book, loved it, especially the Shakespearian climax. Wow. This book also makes me like A Feast For Crows much more than I did before. So much happens in the book, continents and oceans are crossed, people pound across a world and the echoes of events reverberate all around. The complex political machinations are realistic and some of the best I've ever read in the genre. The thematic parallels (across the two books, which should be considered as one) between three terrible new rulers(terrible to the perspective of the people they rule) is really impressive.

 

[mattCR]

Yeah, for all the talk of this being 5 years in the future, (I'm only about 1/2 way finished) I find it happens so much at the same time, I"m pondering someone taking a project of "blending" the two books to mix the chapters based on timelines. Yes, it'd be a 2,000page tome, but I find this as a great companion to FfC

 

[Josh Dial]

Originally Posted by mattCR

Yeah, for all the talk of this being 5 years in the future, (I'm only about 1/2 way finished) I find it happens so much at the same time, I"m pondering someone taking a project of "blending" the two books to mix the chapters based on timelines. Yes, it'd be a 2,000page tome, but I find this as a great companion to FfC

The "5 years in the future" thing was abanoned *long* ago. That was the original plan for Dance, way back after Martin finished Storm. He found it was too cumbersome to constantly backfill in the details with flashbacks, so about a year into writing (the original version) of Dance, we scrapped it, and slotted in Feast for Crows, which was originally intended to cover that "missing" period.


However, that, too, became difficult, as there was simply too much detail to fill in, so Martin then scrapped plan 2.0, and decided to turn Feast and Dance into a 2-volume interlude of sorts, with the former dealing with King's Landing, the South, and The Iron Isles, and the latter with the North, the Wall, and Across the Narrow Sea.


Of course, even *that* got out of Martin's hands, as he originally (can I even use that word now?) wanted the two books to sync up, and span roughly the same time period (~9 months to a year). Dance indeed syncs up with Feast, to the point where a Jon chapter and a Samwell chapter literally cover the exact same events (which was actually quite neat). However, Dance then moves onward in time, with a few glimpses back to Dorne (Areo Hotah), King's Landing (Cersei, Kevan), Bravos (Arya), and the Riverlands (Jaime).


The 5 year thing has been gone for the better part of a decade now, though it still stands as the impetus of why Feast and Dance are the way they are.


As Martin says in his intro to Dance, everyone will be back shivering together in The Winds of Winter, which, according to Martin, picks right up (or shortly after) the final pages of Dance.

 

[mattCR]

DwD SPOILER




Damn, Jon! Easily one of my favorite characters, but I could see it coming. The moment it was over for Stannis, it was over for Jon.

Never let it be said that any character is safe.

 

[Josh Dial]

In response to Matt's spoiler:


There is, of course, the possibility that Jon will come back:

1) Melisandre will resurrect him in the same way Thoros has resurrected Beric and Cat. However, it seems the Red Priestess' powers lie in the realm of visions and divination. Although, see number 2...

2) Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, or rather, he will be, when he's reborn as the Prince that was Promised, as seen in both Rhaegar's prophecy (as told in Dany's House of the Undying vision) and Melisandre's (as told in a Davos POV).

Recall the prophecy from Melisandre: "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Sir Patrek's sigil is a star, and can be seen to have been "bleeding" as he is torn apart by the Giant. Darkness gathering could be seen in the Night's Watch Brothers crowding around Jon. Bowen Marsh's tears are the salt, and the body heat escaping from Jon's wounds are the "smoke."

Also, Jon dreamed of being armoured in black ice, with a burning red sword in his hand. The sword could be Lightbringer. The armour could be literally armour, or perhaps even a figurative prison, such as the frozen cells, maybe even hinting that Jon comes back as a Wight (a la Coldhands).

At any rate, I'm not sure Jon is gone. Also, consider that nobody has died in their own chapter, with the exception of Cat, who of course came back (and excluding the prologue/epilogue characters, who are always doomed ).

 

[mattCR]

Josh:


I may be an idiot. I figured that Azor Ahai was Danny.. born Stormblood born at Dragonstone etc. etc. etc. I guess I could be wrong; I didn't take her as dying, or was I very wrong there? I may have to go back through that.

 

[Josh Dial]

Matt:


Well, there is a pretty interesting way to look at the AA/Prince that was Promised prophecy, which is clearly (at least at this point) a major piece of the story. The big leap here is to merge the two prophecies, seeing them as merely different cultural/religious versions of the same thing.

First, you have multiple characters who fit the prophecy's requirements, including Dany, Stannis, and now Jon. Aegon (Young Griff) is yet another candidate, as seen in Dany's House of the Undying vision, where her brother Rhaegar literally said he was the Prince that was Promised. Victarion is another, interesting, possibility some are throwing around.

Second, again from Dany's vision, you have Rhaegar saying there must be one more, and that the dragon has three heads. This can be interpreted to mean that the Prince/AA is actually not one person, but three.

Third, Maester Aemon says that the word "prince" is actually gender neutral, and thus can refer to either a man or a woman.

So, there is a very real possibility that Jon is one "head," Dany is another, and ??? is the remaining. For Jon, Lightbringer is literally a sword. For Dany, it's her dragons (so some argue).

It is important to note, however, that the Ser Patrek and his star sigil is actually the result of a bet between Martin and a friend, where upon losing, Martin had to pay homage to the Dallas Cowboys in some way. Some say this means the scene is a throwaway, while others claim Martin is cleverly using the bet to mask an extremely important piece of plot.

One other interesting prophecy, if you can call it that, is the one from Mirri Maz Duur, "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

The final Dany chapter seems to see this all coming true: the sun is actually Quentyn Martell--whose sigil is a sun--being born (rising) in the west, and dying (setting) in the east; the sea going dry is the Dothraki sea of grass; the mountains blowing are the pyramids crumbling. Dany comments that she shouldn't be having her period at that time of the month, pointing to some sort of strange "girl problems," perhaps pregnancy or a miscarriage. Then, of course, the Khalasar appears.

Is this a prophecy coming true? Certainly Martin wouldn't be bringing back Khal Drogo, so who is actually returning? It's unlikely this was all to herald the return of Khal Jhaqo (who leads the incoming khalasar).

All-in-all, a simply spectacular book, especially if you are a fan of the lore/religions/prophecies/world Martin has created. Everything is fleshed out a remarkable detail.