A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

Like RAF, I received my VP-50 today. I'll probably not mess with it until this weekend because I have so much going on this week, but I am excited as to how much it will add to my HT with both a BRD and HD DVD players hooked up to it.




Crawdaddy

 

[RAF]

Like Crawdaddy, the arrival of the VP50 is the calm before the storm for me. Since I already have the VP30 in place I already know what video processing can do and I'm in no great rush to swap out the VP30 (although I am curious about using the VP30 upstairs with my Panasonic Plasma set so maybe I'll do a wire for wire swap out in the next day or so.)

The real work will come when my Denon 3806 receiver (used as a pre-pro) and my Denon 2930ci DVD player arrive in about 1-2 weeks. That's when the VP50 can strut its stuff for me. The addition of Denonlink III frees up my 7.1 analog inputs for HD audio codecs and the 2930ci will be the first SD DVD player I own with 480i output over HDMI so the VP can do it's thing.

In addition, I expect to receive my new Universal Remote Control, the MX-3000 along with their new MSC-400 "Master System Controller" so that I can tie all of this together. It will take a bit of programming on my part, but the end result will be to tie all the controls together. In a world of trade-offs, one of the advantages of a mega-receiver (instead of separates) is you generally can control everything quite simply. Of course this comes at the expense of greater flexibility, performance and ungradability so to me this is an acceptable tradeoff. Remember, with separate audio and video processors you have to coordinate all the input and output selections each time you change sources and or display parameters. The use of a remote with macros or some other control options can handle this for you but it does, I'll admit, take a bit more work to set up initially. A Mega-receiver, on the other hand, usually coordinates all the inputs and outputs for you in a slightly more convenient way (although some of these receiver manuals are bigger than a telephone book).

As soon as I have hands on experience with the MX-3000 and the MSC-400 I'll have a lot more to say. (I've used my original Pronto and a Universal MX-950 in the recent past -- and even a Marantz RC-2000 in the "old" days! -- so I'm not really a remote neophyte here, but this project is more complex due to all the new toys.) In the meantime, I've been in e-mail correspondence with a few friends who have also expressed a concern that we talk about the control issues involved in a component approach to HT and I've invited a couple of them to join the discussion here as they see fit.

I hope to see some of them jump in with some alternative control suggestions.

 

[Cees Alons]

But the VP50 can already "do its thing" with S-Video or other components, doesn't it? Just not as smoothly, perhaps?


Cees

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Hi Robert,

(Long post alert....)

The two box solution does give much greater flexibility in upgrading and matching the needs of a system. For example if one was happy with their existing pre-pro/receiver but wanted HDMI switching to their system a HDMI switchbox can be added to take care of this without having to scrap the pre-pro/receiver they are happy with. If the needs were for video processing to handle a constant height front projection system an appropriate scaler (such as the DVDO or Lumagen) could be added to the existing pre-pro/receiver.

However, this does add some additional challenges to the system. One of the big ones is as you mentioned the everyday usage of the system. Instead of having a single box running everything you know have two. The user know needs to turn on/off both boxes and switch audio inputs on one box and video inputs on another to keep everything in sync. The complexity of using this more flexible setup increases.... the WAF decreases.

"I hope to see some of them jump in with some alternative control suggestions."

Macros in a remote is one way of dealing with the need to syncronize two boxes to each other. This can work pretty well but does have some downsides. The most obvious is it only works with that one remote. If a person uses a different remote the audio and video get out of sync again as there is nothing to tie them together. Or if one switches inputs on the pre-pro/receiver front panel itself, say when loading a DVD, the audio and video are again out of sync. Another potential downside with macros is in simple IR reception. This likely won't be an issue for you with the IR flasher system you will be using, I use the MX-3000 as well, but for those that still have to aim their remotes at the systems while performing macros sometimes a code gets missed which again results in out of sync audio and video.

When using a two box system in this manor it still is fairly obvious that it is a two box system as you have to keep in mind only using the macro programmed remote, aim it and wait for macros to complete, don't touch the front panel of the pre-pro/receiver, etc...etc..

Because of all of this I build a little device which integrates two box systems together so they work together no matter what. Turn on your pre-pro/receiver, by front panel or any IR remote you want, and the video box turns on. Switch inputs on the pre-pro/receiver, again by front panel or any IR remote, and the video box switches inputs to match automatically and with no worries about missed IR commands or anything like that.

My box works by using the RS232 serial control port that is on many different pre-pro/receivers and on numerous video scalers and video switch boxes. In effect it watches, and in some cases queries, the pre-pro/receiver for power status and input selected and when they change it sends the appropriate RS232 command to the video switch/scaler to keep audio and video inputs in sync. Because my box is actively looking for feedback from the receiver/pre-pro it does not matter how the receiver/pre-pro is controlled, the second video box will stay in sync. It makes the syncing of the two boxes really seamless so they act as one all the time.

There is another potential problem of two box systems that should be considered. That is simply getting feedback from your pre-pro/receiver about what it is doing... volume setting and so on. If the pre-pro/receiver is in line of site then one can just look at the front panel to see what is going on. However, if the pre-pro/receiver is located out of the line of site the user has likely relied on the pre-pro/receivers On Screen Display for feedback. If all the video sources are routed through a seperate video box the user has lost the On Screen Display from the pre-pro/receiver which is likely going to be a problem. Same problem for video sources that can't be routed through the existing pre-pro/receiver such as HDMI or SDI.

There are a couple of ways of dealing with this.

The first is to run the video output of the receiver/pre-pro into a different input on the video box and when needed change inputs on the video box just to see the OSD. This works but is fairly ugly in practice since it makes control more complex and is of course distracting to have to drop your active video input, switch to another input just to see volume level or whatever, then switch back.

A second way to deal with this is to get a small say 7" LCD display like what is used in car video systems and run the OSD output from your pre-pro/receiver to that. Put the LCD in line of site of the user and they can simply look at it to see what the pre-pro/receiver is doing. Doing this can work well, I have used it in my theater, but one typically needs a manor of turning the little display on/off by remote if they have a 'bat cave' of a theater to avoid un-needed light polution when they don't want the LCD display on.

Lastly for very specific systems I have just added a new function to my box in the latest software release to solve this problem. Lumagen video scalers have the ability to basically put up messages On Screen via the RS232 interface. Using this special feature of the Lumagens my box can take whatever is on the Front Panel display of a Lexicon and make the Lumagen display it On Screen as an overlay. This way even if no video sources passes through the Lexicon at all I still get an OSD from the Lexicon of whatever is on the Front Panel. As you know in a Lexicon the entire box can be configured via the Front Panel display alone. This feature is specific to the combination of Lexicon's and Lumagen scalers for now. A few DVDO owners have requested this sort of feature be added to the VP50 and if it is added I will add support for the DVDO to my box as well. If there are times when one doesn't want this function active they can simply turn off the front panel of the Lexicon (FP button on the remote) and the On Screen Display function turns off as well. I have a couple of Quicktimes up on my site showing this in action.

Thanks,

Shawn
http://www.switch-box.com/

 

[RAF]

Yes, Cees, the VP30 (and my soon to be installed VP50) can take other sources and process the video output to make it much better. The DVDO motto is "any resolution in and any resolution out" (within limits, of course but highly flexible.) That said, the optimal way to approach the output from any form of media is to deal with what is directly on the disc or whatever. For SD discs this means 480i (maybe 576i in Europe?) so that the ideal situation is to have a DVD player which can actually pass the 480i/576i signal through digitally to the video processor. This results in the processor handling the data stream without any intervening processing from the player. If you start with component output (analog) or S-Video or any other video output from the DVD player you are dealing with a processed signal and not with the source itself. And since the VP50 (and the VP30 with the Model 102 VRS deinterlacing upgrade) uses state of the art deinterlacing of 480i/576i as it creates the progressive output (some reviews have called it the best out there) it is a good thing to deal with the source data stream. As I mentioned before, DVD players with 480i output over HDMI can be had for as little as $150 (the OPPO 970).

And in a related matter, the VP50 has added 1080i deinterlacing to the mix via the same VRS process that the VP30 does for 480i. This means that you should see an improved image from your Toshiba HD-DVD player which outputs 1080i. When the new models output the 1080p native data stream from the HD-DVD this won't be necessary but there are still a lot of 1080i signals out there that can definitely benefit from VRS processing.

And remember that the soon to be introduced PReP upgrade for the VP50 will actually let one de-interlace progressive signals so that the VRS interlacing can do its thing.

Make sense to you?

 

[Joe S.]

So, any of you guys want to sell me your old VP30? Hehe

 

[RAF]

Hello Shawn!

Thanks for chiming in here on this most important aspect of the component (rather than receiver) approach to A/V - controlling everything. For those who don't know Shawn Fogg he is a frequent contributor to the Lexicon Forum and other internet venues where HT and A/V are discussed. He has designed an interesting piece of equipment (his Universal Translator) that can assist someone who is trying to tie everything together. The best way to describe it is to refer to a review earlier this year in Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity that you can read HERE. (It's a 4 part article so be sure to read all four parts for full coverage.) Many of us are already familiar with programmable remotes such as Pronto, Universal, Crestron, etc. all with various levels of sophisication. As I mentioned elsewhere, I'll be installing a Universal MX-3000 with an MSC-400 (look here if you want more information about these products) that should handle most of what I need to do. Other moderators here (Adam Gregorich and Steve Simon among others, for example) use remotes with macro capabilities and that's how we control all the components in our system as I'm sure a lot of you do, too.

Because there are so many variables in individual home theaters everyone's instruction set and control parameters will be different and there are whole sites (Remote Central being the mother lode) devoted to this quickly growing field.

Shawn has an approach that involves RS-232 control of the various boxes (especially the audio pre/pro and the video processor) that allows them, in many respects, to behave much like an all-in-one mega-receiver as far as control is concerned. Remember, while I favor the component approach as a better way to deal with upgrading and state of the art performance I do understand that you need to push additional buttons (or set up some macros) to provide the "one box, one button" convenience of a receiver. Shawn's work, and the work of many others in the industry, is a welcome addition to the area of "box control."

As an interesting side note, when you read the review of Shawn's Universal Translator in Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity pay particular attention to the Introduction. I hadn't read this review (or even been aware of Shawn's device) before writing my own article but it is clear that we are both on the same page here as far as recognizing the component approach to A/V as being something that now includes a video processor as one of the pieces.

Shawn has graciously agreed to check in from time to time to answer any questions you might have involving control issues. He certainly is a better authority on this topic than I am. As always, I'm trying to provide as much information as possible about a variety of products that are part of the process (Lumagen and DVDO VPs, Pronto, Crestron, Universal Remotes and Translators, etc. etc...) While I have my personal favorites that doesn't mean that these won't change and I don't expect everyone to want or need the identical equipment. It's all about choices in the HT arena - first which way to go (components vs. an A/V receiver) and then which pieces to consider. This thread is designed to serve as a road map with many different paths. The more detailed it is, the better it will serve us all.

 

[RAF]

Actually, I might have been interested (or I would have traded up to the VP50 rather than buying a new one) if I didn't have a use for my VP30 upstairs. As it is, I like the VP30 so much that it will serve me well in my bedroom system which includes a Panasonic Plasma Display as well as a couple of other HDMI/DVI capable components. Not only will the VP30 provide me with "pixel for pixel" custom scaling for my Plasma TV (or any other display I choose to use it with) but it will serve as a video switcher too.

When the VP60 (or whatever) comes along eventually, I'll either trade up or sell one of the VPs at that point. Three VPs is a bit of overkill, even for me.

 

[Cees Alons]

Perfectly!

In fact this is another example of buying some enhancement without the immediate need to upgrade various other components, but be able to wait until the time for that (a new development, and/or your budget) comes.

Consider one new VP50 installed in Europe (close to the West coast ) soon!


(BTW, I just got more specs on the Sony Perl, now offered in Europe too, and the zoom-lens specs - always something to worry about in a predefined HT - happen to be exactly what I need in my soon-to-be-ready home theater. So another of your recommendations will lead to a purchase here very soon as well!)


Cees

 

[Mike OConnell]

I have sent the following message to the e-mail link for help and/or advice from the DVDO web site three times over the past two months and have never received a response...

Maybe the expertise of the members of this forum can help guide me!


I am considering picking up an iScan unit for video processing and was looking for a recommendation.

I have a Studio Experience 13-HD (Sanyo PLV60) that is around five years old and thus it does not have HDMI input, only component inputs for inputs 2 and 3. The maximum resolution of the inputs (native projector resolution) is 1366 x 768 pixels and the component input can accept up to 1080i resolution. It can accept component or RBGHV connection: The components that are currently hooked up in my system are:

Scientific Atlanta 8300HD cable box from Time-Warner Cable set for 720p or 1080i output directly into input 3 on the SE 13HD and audio via analog stereo and coaxial digital connections.

Denon 5900 DVD player set for 480p output connected directly to input 2 on the SE 13HD and to my pre-pro with 6-channel analog for DVD-A and SACD and coaxial digital connection. Unless I am able to take advantage of the higher resolution output of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray via a component connection I do not plan on upgrading to these types of players.

Anthem D1 – I do not use it for video switching. It has up to 192 ms of lip-sync delay available.

I have had the projector calibrated professionally for both inputs 2 (DVD) and 3 (Cable) and it did help with the picture.

Pending non-repairable projector issue I do not see replacing the projector for the foreseeable future; therefore, I will not have HDMI anytime soon.

I have considered the VP30. What would be the advantage of adding the deinterlacing card and/or the SDI input? (I realize I would have to modify my DVD player to add SDI output). If SDI is added is there any advantage to the deinterlacing card? Would a component or RBGHV breakout cable for my projector be recommended?

End of Message.


PS - don't get me started on the screwing of early adopters of HD by the motion picture industry in limiting the ability of 1080i and 1080p transmission over component connections.......

 

[Joe S.]

Come on Robert, no plasma in the bathroom yet? And you call yourself a Home Theater "Enthusiast"? Plasma in the bedroom. Hehe, you crack me up man...

 

[Cees Alons]

Mike, you can.
I have a Toshiba HD-A1 and I can use component (including S-Video) up to 1080 to display my HD discs.

(Upconverted SD DVD with macrovision is another matter...)

The notorious ICT-bit isn't used at all. By the time they even dare to set it on on a HD DVD, we already have our new displays.

(And I agree with you: if they were serious about serving the consumer, it wouldn't be there in the first place.)

I say this here and now, because it's still possible for you to lay your hands on one of these splendid machines for a fabulous price.
Also see my question to RAF above: the VP30 and VP50 have indeed S-Video and other component in, he replied!


Cees

 

[RAF]

Well, no plasma in the bathroom, Joe, but I did recently pick up a 20" HD LCD for the kitchen in stainless steel. It's a Toshiba 20HLK86 and while at first I thought the stainless steel case might be a little gimmicky, it actually matches the kitchen appliances perfectly (wall mounted with a Sanus stand). I guess if I ever put a TV (HD of course) in the Water Closet it would either have to be white or I'd shudder at my other color options!

 

[Joe S.]

Or you could install a black toilet...

 

[RAF]

The purpose of adding an SDI (Serial Digital Interface) card is to allow the VP30 (or 50) to accept SDI input from a player so equipped. The SDI output on the DVD player gives you a pure digital signal directly from the DVD media and avoids any other pre-processing of the video signal. However, as you mentioned, this would require both an SDI card on the DVDO (about $399 I believe) and an SDI modification to your Denon 5900. I'm not sure of the cost of the Denon SDI mod but I would venture to guess it would be several hundred dollars plus the potential for a dicey installation if you do it yourself.

However, there is an alternative way to get to the direct digital bitstream (480i) off of an SD DVD and that would be using a player with 480i HDMI output. Rather than modifying your 5900 you can buy such a player (the Oppo 970) for under $150! (Far less than the cost of an SDI card and a DVD SDI modification). I'm not suggesting you replace your excellent Denon 5900 with the Oppo, but use it as a supplement (it has a very low profile and the DVDO certainly could accept the additional input with no problem. The ideal thing would be to feed this signal into a VP30 with the #102 VRS interface card installed (at $499). Alternately, you could try the VP30 without the interface card since it accepts 480i without the #102 and does a commendable job. It's just that the #102 provides state of the art deinterlacing. Your choice (and it's still cheaper than an SDI card and SDI player mod.)

One last item: If you are considering a VP30 with a #102 deinterlacing card, remember that the VP50 comes with the VRS interlacing built in and extends it to 1080i deinterlacing as well (no VRS 1080i on the VP30, just "regular" 1080i deinterlacing). Once you figure in the cost of a VP30 + a #102 VRS deinterlacing card, versus a VP50 (with VRS included) the two units are not as far apart in price.

Lots of options here, and many of them will fit your needs based on your equipment. Cees has already answered your concerns regarding the other connections so I won't repeat them here unless you need further clarification.

I hope that some of this helps.

 

[RAF]

(Some things don't need to be in HD - like Barbara Walters or bathroom fixtures)

 

[Adam Gregorich]

The players will only send these formats out analog or via HDMI

 

[Robert Crawford]

RAF,
I'm not into advanced audio like you, so wouldn't it be cheaper for me to just wait on the PReP upgrade for the VP50 to upconvert my SD DVDs instead of buying a Denon 2930ci or the much cheaper Oppo 970 to process 480I out of the HDMI output?





Crawdaddy

 

[Adam Gregorich]

I would. You will be able to do a before prep after prep comparison.

 

[RAF]

Yes, you could always wait for PReP. Don't forget, the VP50 does a very nice job dealing with the out put from any DVD player (or any other source for that matter.) The reason to try to get a 480i digital output from the DVD player is to access the pure, unaltered signal that's on the disc. Anything else (other than 480i digital) means that the signal has been modified. Some players do it well, others not so well. You avoid all of this with a 480i HDMI output on SD (theoretically). That said, once PReP arrives I'm guessing that the differences between processing a 480i HDMI signal and processing a different signal from a DVD player that has been PReP'ed first will probably look very similar (and very nice) to the average viewer. I think that this is one of those things that might show up a bit with test patterns, etc. I can't say for sure until my equipment (and PReP) arrives. As Adam said, then you'll be able to A/B the picture.

Remember, I'm not getting the 2930ci for its 480i HDMI output (although that's a welcome benefit). I'm getting it because it solves my SACD/DVD-A "wire cram" problem. My current SD player (a Denon 2900) doesn't have HDMI. But more importantly, you can only play SACD/DVD-A on the 2900 via the analog 5.1 outputs. The 2930ci introduces DENONLINK III (which interfaces with the Denon 3806 receiver). This eliminates the need for any other audio connection between the player and the receiver (all media, including full 5.1 SACD and DVD-A) and frees up the analog inputs (now 7.1 compared to the Lexicon's 5.1) to handle HD sound codecs from capable HD players. Also, since I'm using Denonlink to play SACD/DVD-A I need not concern myself with what version of HDMI I'm using (Denonlink III added SACD to DVD-A support) in my receiver. The advanced HD codecs will come in through the 7.1 analog inputs for now (or PCM over S/PDIF). I'll worry about HDMI 1.3 (and replace my pre/pro) when 1.3 is available on a lot of sources and pre-pro/receivers. That's probably a year or two away.