A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about (1 Viewer)

[Joe S.]

Plus, from working in DVD products I would eat my hat if PCs didn't have a "combo" Bluray/HD-DVD dual-format drive out by early 2008. HTPC can just dump the old drive, slip in a combo, and you are finished. Players will have them too, but a bit later and at a higher price (just like DVD drives now.)

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"The purpose of this thread and my article is not to tell everyone to rush out and buy a video processor immediately, but to get people thinking a bit as they plan their next equipment acquisitions to deal with all the new formats, audio as well as video."

and that's exactly what it did for me, thanks again Robert.

 

[RAF]

Joe,

Both you and Parker make some very good points about HTPCs offering the maximum in flexibility and upgradeability due to their modular nature. I fully support your positions and understand your reasoning. In fact, as a PC person from way back (and I mean really way back to the days where they were assembled from ICs) I know exactly where you and other HTPCers are coming from. However, there is a large segment of the HT family that doesn't want to roll up their sleeves and get involved with "under the hood" electronics, so the burgeoning external video processor industry presents most of the flexibility without a PC "mentality" (although we understand that even video processors are PCs with a bow tie ).

One of my personal reasons for not using HTPCs more extensively in the past was that PCs generally didn't fit easily in my HT equipment racks, but a lot of that has changed in recent years. Adam G. took me to the Niveus booth at CEDIA this year and those are some fine looking devices! It's no longer your dad's (or in my case, my) HTPC!

 

[Parker Clack]

RAF:

Exactly. Those without an HTPC would benefit in many way with an external video processor.

Joe:

I was thinking the same thing. While others are waiting for the industry to decide on what to do with a combo player people that build an HTPC could have both HD DVD and Blu-Ray less out of pocket overall.

 

[Cees Alons]

True, but I'll bet you that two drives, a HD DVD and a BD one, will not be (much) more expensive and they will change your HTPC into a combo machine right away.

It's what I did when drives were getting regio-locked (after five switches)and before the modified (region-free) players were broadly available.


Cees

 

[Chris Souders]

If I am waiting for HDMI 1.3 compliant inputs on a tv before I buy one, and a blueray player with HDMI 1.3, shouldn't I need a video processor which is 1.3 compliant as well? 1.3 has something referred to as deep color... would a non-compliant processor ruin that aspect?

Chris

 

[ChristopherDAC]

Simply put, "deep color" has no application to any video playback format, now or in the forseeable future. It may be applicable to games or computer graphics, but DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-Ray all agree on 8 bits per sample. I don't look for 10-bit channel depths (which I think standard DVI/HDMI will handle), not to speak of 12, 16, or more, any time soon, so that capability isn't relevant to a video processor.

HDMI 1.3 compliance on the player and audio preamp-processor is needed only if you want to pass Dolby TrueHD or dts-HD/MA audio bitstreams. If the HDMI (video) flow is source➧pre-pro ➧video processor➧display, only the first two items need 1.3 under any circumstances.

 

[Christian Behrens]

The bigger issue with HDMI 1.3 is the smaller plug, which most people aren't aware of yet: "HDMI 1.3 uses a smaller connector than the original HDMI connector. They are both similar in appearance, but the HDMI 1.3 plug measures about half the size."
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/hdmi_info.html

-Christian

 

[Cees Alons]

No it isn't an issue at all.
A new, smaller plug is indeed defined next to the old one (especially to be used for camcorders and the like). Other equipment may use it too, of course.

But the new plugs are a 100% compatible with the current HDMI plugs and cross-cables will be widely available to connect devices.
(Compare this situation to the two standard USB plugs! Although applied in a different way.)

Not a real issue, certainly not a "bigger" one!


Cees

 

[RAF]

One widely circulated misconception regarding HDMI versions and video is that somehow you need the "latest" version to deal with the latest video formats. This is certainly not the case at all. The fact is that HDMI, right from the earliest versions, supports 1080p video. You don't need 1.2, 1.2a, 1.3 or whatever comes next. Yes, there is a part of the HDMI 1.3 specification that allows for more video bandwidth and greater color depth (sometimes referred to as "Deepcolor," "TrueColor" or similar names) but, as ChristopherDAC has correctly pointed out, this has no practical application for any video source or equipment in the foreseeable future so it's a non-issue.

Yes, the various versions of HDMI do add increasing support for audio formats and new codecs, but since my model has the HDMI going into the audio pre/pro (or receiver) first and then into the video processor there is absolutely no requirement for the VP to contain the latest version of HDMI. When the time comes that you want HDMI 1.3, etc. for audio issues that's the time you upgrade the audio pre/pro and not the video processor. That's the whole point of a component approach to A/V.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

 

[Parker Clack]

A question.

If you pass the audio over your S/PDIF connection to your preamp and let the preamp decode the signal for Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD/MA will the S/PDIF output be able to send this signal out in the first place or is this limited? Do you think that the new audio cards will now have HDMI outputs for the audio portion or do you think they will remain with S/PDIF and Analog outs?

 

[RAF]

Parker,

I'm not sure if you were asking this question in the context of an HTPC audio card or if you were asking this in general for any HT components but here's my take on this.

S/PDIF will, as presently designed, be able to pass most of the TrueHD information but not all of it. That's because the TrueHD (7.1) spec calls for 5.1 information being passed through the S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) cable from the source to the pre-amp or receiver. While not the full 7.1 audio stream (only available from HDMI or 7.1 analog output from the player/audio card, etc.) the resulting 5.1 mix will probably sound better than your "standard" 5.1 DD sources (like DVD-Video) because of the higher bit rate of the source material (TrueHD or Dolby Digital Plus) feeding your pre-amp's DD decoder. This is because DD decoders can handle 640 kbps, which is higher than DVD-Video's maximum audio bit rate. I have noticed this when feeding sound from my HD-DVD player to my Lexicon MC-8 via S/PDIF while waiting for my newer "boxes" to arrive. Without question the 5.1 sound from HD sources via S/PDIF sounds better (cleaner and clearer) than 5.1 sound from standard 5.1 sources.

A very good source for explaining all this can be found HERE.

Does that answer your question, or did I miss the mark?

 

[Dave Moritz]

Does anyone here have a DVDO® iScan™ VP50 in there HT and how well does it work really? After seeing the Faroudja scalers at CES in 03' and 04' O have been sold on them. So I am just wondering how well the DVDO scalers worked? And do the DVDO scalers have HDMI inputs and outputs?

 

[Parker Clack]

RAF:

Yep. That answered it. Thanks.

I wonder if the new sound cards will be able to pass 7.1 over S/PDIF.

 

[Joe S.]

So in looking at Robert's post again, doing some research, and checking out his system setup (nice!), I'm starting to be swayed by his arguement. The VP30 would be a great scaler as well as replacing my current (and next) video component auto-switcher and can be upgraded in the future.

So my next question is what are some good pre/pro right now that don't have much (or any) video switching and just concentrate on sound? Meaning if I was to go the component route, what

 

[Cees Alons]

I know at least three members who ordered one.
It looks like a very nice upgrade to the VP30.


Cees

 

[RAF]

Funny you should ask. The doorbell rang a couple of hours ago and it wasn't trick or treaters, it was my new VP50. Since I've owned a VP30 for the past year I'm expecting great things from the 50, which I saw at CEDIA. The differences between the 30 and the 50 can be seen at the DVDO site. Both are similar in many ways (the remotes are identical - I've already checked) with the VP50 adding additional functions and menu options (as well as increased expandability and upgrading options which I'll learn more about as time goes by.)

As to your questions: Yes the VP50 (and the 30) has HDMI inputs (4 of them) and one HDMI output. I believe the 50 has the same HDMI 1.1 jacks that the 30 has, but this is of no concern since HDMI 1.3 fully supports and passes 1080p signals You are only really interested in 1.3 for audio codecs and in my way of thinking the audio is taken care of in the pre/pro (or receiver) with the video being passed through to the VP. Any flavor of HDMI works for the video at this point and probably for the next 10 years or more. And yes, if you were blown away by the Faroudja several years ago you will be very pleased with today's video processors. Not only are they more functional than the "line doublers" and "line quadruplers" of the past, they perform better. While Faroudja was once the "king" of VP in most circles, companies like DVDO and Lumagen, among others, have come to the forefront with their latest and their announced products. This now becomes a matter of personal preference (like automobiles) rather than any model being a clear cut winner. And the field is constantly changing.

I expect to receive my new pre/pro (actually the front end of a Denon 3806 receiver) and my new DVD player (Denon 2930ci with DenonLink III) in a couple of weeks and at that time I'll start putting all the pieces together and report on the results. For now I'll probably switch out the VP30 and insert the VP50 because I want to let the VP30 start performing its magic with my Panasonic Plasma upstairs (custom mapping the pixels to the exact resolution of the "720p" Plasma) and acting as an HDMI switcher as well.

Tonight it's answer the door and hand out the candy.

 

[RAF]

Joe,

That's the $64 question (and I'm showing my age, literally, with that statement ) Right now pre/pros and receivers with HDMI 1.3 capability (for the new audio codecs) are just beginning to appear so appear and it will be a year or so before there is a real choice in this area, if then. When I "graduated" from my Denon 5700 receiver about 5 years ago by going to an Outlaw 950/755 combination I was very happy (see my site for details) since it offered more flexibility and better sound. However, a few quirks about the 950 like those you mentioned eventually got to me and I replaced the 950 with a Lexicon MC-8 pre/pro, retaining the Outlaw 755 5 channel amps as well as some other 200w/channel Marantz Monoblocks. With all the new audio formats (as well as things like Dolby Digital IIx competing with Lexicon Logic 7 for the "7.1" soundstage) the MC-8's shortcomings in flexibility with the new audio codecs and inputs has me looking for an interim solution until HDMI 1.3 is here in serious numbers (and there are more sound sources.)

I've been looking around for the same thing you are looking for and I finally settled on the Denon 3806 receiver for my pre-pro. It has everything I need (even ignoring its amps and using it as a pre-pro) and the DenonLink III solves my SACD/DVD-A requirements while freeing up the 7.1 analog inputs for TrueHD and whatever as I wait for HDMI 1.3 devices to appear. And it is currently available at a street price of under $900 if you look hard enough. I detail my full strategy in my article for those interested in the full details. I would just like to add that while I chose Denon, I'm not dismissing comparable receivers used as pre-pros from other manufacturers. Just look for the quality of components with minimal video processing bells and whistles (since that's taken care of by your VP). And if you choose a pre/pro (or reciever used as one) that has HDMI inputs (even 1.1) you can pass the HDMI video signal through to your video processor and also use the pre/pro as an HDMI source switcher.

The DenonLink III, which is proprietary, tipped the scales for me in favor of a Denon product while I wait for the next great pre-pro with HDMI 1.3 and all the other features that I want. Will it be a rumored Denon pre/pre, a next generation Outlaw, a Lexicon, or something else? Time will tell, but in the meantime, I'm positioned to enjoy what's out there today with flexibility for the future.

 

[Dave Moritz]

While audio is very important to me its not the only thing I want from HDMI. My concern is that I will be loosing picture performance by using HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 for video. The goal for using an external scaler is to improve the picture to the Sony SXRD VPL-VW50 1080p projector that I plan to buy. By the time I have the projector they may have HDMI 1.3 included. I would like to have the best picture that I can afford and the best sound I can get. I am working on upgrading my HT and it will be the most costly upgrades I have ever done. I may just end up settling for what ever I can get and hope it works out just because it will depend on what is available at the time. I only hope that the performance of the video or audio does not end up being bottom of the barrel.

Future Purchases:
Denon or Adcom Reciever
Sony SXRD VPL-VW50 Projector
Stewart 110" Firehawk Screen
New Cables
Monster 3 Channel Power Amp 250 w/ch
Blu-ray HD 1080p Player
New Center Channel & Rear Channel Speakers
Subwoofer
Monster Power Center
Theater Seating

 

[RAF]

it appears that there is no reason why a sound card shouldn't be able to pass 7.1 over S/PDIF if it is designed properly. At least that's what I think the author was saying. The point is that if the source does the decoding then audio can be handled via PCM over standard S/PDIF connections which are common on even today's receivers/pre-pros. Of course, the receiver/pre-pro must be able to handle 7.1 channels at appropriate bit rates, but that's another story entirely.

 

[RAF]

I understand your concern Dave, but you are missing the point about HDML 1.3 and video. Yes, it is true that 1.3 allows for increased video bandwidth and color depth (called something like "True Color" or "HDColor") but that's something that has to do with something so far out in the future that it won't affect HT displays for probably more than a decade. Right now we are still at the relative dawn of HD for the home and it's taken almost that amount of time to get there (and that's 1080i/720p I'm talking about.)

The fact of the matter is that the HDMI protocol has supported 1080p from the beginning so that you don't lose anything at all if using 1.1 or 1.2 for video. There is absolutely nothing to be gained in video performance by feeding a full 1080p display a signal via HDML 1.1 or 1.2. (This was verified for me by Jano Banks who is one of the patent holders for HDMI). It's the audio spectrum that gains from upgraded HDMI standards. That's why I don't see the need for an HDMI 1.3 capable connection on a 1080p display of any flavor. We certainly don't play the sound through the display in an HT.

And even if HDMI 1.3 was something to be concerned with as a video carrier at some point in the future, if and when that time came, you could always upgrade your video processor to an HDMI 1.3 capable one. I can only speak for DVDO (since I'm only familiar with their upgrade policies) but if you check their site under "upgrades" you can see that they are quite liberal in their policies in this area. And if even that isn't good enough for you, there's always e-bay and similar.

I hope I haven't misunderstood your comments, but I don't think you have to concern yourself about HDMI flavors and video performance. Audio is a different matter and that's where are the uncertainty lies. Unfortunately, some people are lumping the audio and video together as though they are all related to the HDMI numbers game.