A Few Words About A few words about... Apollo 13 -- In High Definition (1 Viewer)

[TedD]

Of course it's cooked. It's a demo, after all. :frowning:

There's the demo, then there's the real thing. Only rarely do they have any reasonable relationship to one another.

Ted

 

[Paul.S]

John:

Although the demo disc may likely be mastered at a louder volume, that may not be the exclusive "culprit." Is "Dialog Enhancement" turned off?

 

[Dave Moritz]

I love this movie and Universal did a great job. The video on HD-DVD is a great improvement over its SD-DVD counterpart. How ever I still prefer the 5.1 DTS track over the newer Dolby Digital Plus track. I would hope that if Universal releases a second HD-DVD release of this title they will consider a Dolby True HD track. And if Universal decides to also support Blu-ray that Apollo 13 will contain a DTS-HD track instead of Dolby Digital Plus.

But overall I consider Apollo 13 on HD-DVD to be a really good buy and a great addition to any HD collection.

 

[John Lloyd]

I did not change the setting for Dialog Enhancement, so it is the default setting for the HD-A2. When I get a chance, I will play around with that setting and see how it affects the volume.

 

[Paul.S]

John:

I think the default is to "On." Try leaving it on only for Dolby TrueHD titles and otherwise turning it off.

 

[TonyD]

nope, off for true hd.

on disables or defeats the true hd setting.

 

[John Lloyd]

I just checked my player and Dialog Enhancement is OFF.
Dynamic Range Control is set to AUTO.

 

[Paul.S]

I stand corrected: off for TrueHD.

But I don't think it's accurate to say that the higher fidelity of the TrueHD format (not really a "setting") is "disabled" or "defeated" by DE.

 

[TonyD]

ok, then what would you say.

the dialog enhance causes the true hd track to not work properly.

semantics

 

[Paul.S]

It's not sematics.



According to what authority who has presumably listened to all TrueHD titles with and without DE in order to be able to make such a broad statement (that you're now putting in my mouth)?

In my experience, and that of a friend with more experience in this regard than me, the DE setting sometimes produces less pleasing s.q. on THD tracks. I'm not trying to pick a fight and could do without the "tone." I'm saying that "defeats" and "disables" are strong words to use, intimating that in all instances DE interacts with THD tracks in the same negative way and somehow obviates the greater native rez of THD. Sounds too all-encompassing for my comfort, unless you're both a Dolby and Tosh engineer.

My position is that YMMV; frankly, I think the original mixing and mastering prolly plays a significant role.

Would you not agree that DE is akin to (THX) "re-eq": some titles benefit from it and others do not?

 

[TonyD]

i dont know what your being sensitive to my "tone" for.
i dont even know what you mean by that.

anyway as far as the de, it makes the true hd track not work the way its supposed to.

thats the way i hear it.
if you hear a true hd track that works with the de on, then go for it.

 

[Paul.S]

Typically when one says the difference between their and the other side's position is a matter of "semantics," they're intimating that the other party is playing word games. It's not a charitable intimation. In this situation, I think there's a substantive difference between our perspectives.

With your last two sentences above, NOW you appear to be willing to grant that there may be instances (in this case, movie titles) in which one's experience may not be the case for others and broad statements like "DE defeats THD" therefore aren't accurate. Thank you: that--and helping John--was my point all along.

 

[TonyD]

ok, you win.

i seemed to have bothered you with my description of de's effect on true hd .
no more from me.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

personal issues aside,

what is the way that one can playback a Dolby True HD track and get a "bit for bit" extracted version of it without level-changes or any signal modification?

That's the correct way, in theory, to play back the track in a reference/review senario, regardless of what other settings may or may not sound more pleasing.

In this case, what settings leave the signal alone?


"Fidelity" means "faithfulness". By definition, the higher-fidelity choice would be the one less changed from the original. Any modification to a signal, even one that sounds subjectively better according to a listener's taste, is not high-fidelity.

A high-fidelity playback of a recording reveals that recording exactly as it really is, as closely as the technology will allow. So in this case, that would be whatever choice leaves the Dolby True HD track in its original form without level-adjustments.

This is an important point. And it's one issue that "advanced authored" HD DVD discs have that could be a problem as HD DVD players force all the audio... even the lossless audio... through DSP mixing circuits and level-changing algorithms during playback. That's right... you could chop off 16 db of resolution from your digital waveform just because the advanced authored disc might want to stream in a few menu-click sounds of your remote. Over at AVS audiophiles have suggested to Amir/Toshiba that there is a desire for an "audiophile" playback mode that would leave lossless tracks alone and not try to modify them upon playback for advanced-authored discs. Not exactly the same situation you guys are discussing here, but related so I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Paul.S]

My use of the word “pleasing” was admittedly not the best in that it’s too vague. I understand how it has elicited academic comments about fidelity. I did not mean to give quarter to say, bass heads (and I use that term endearingly), who might find a boomy low end more to their personal tastes, sound mixer intentions be damned.

What I was referring to is how some people in my experience are more sensitive to muddled dialogue than others. When I don’t understand what an actor has said, depending on who I’m spinning DVDs with I tend to be the nettlesome one who either quietly asks “What’d he say?” and, if no one knows, goes back to replay perhaps with subtitles turned on. Some people just let it pass, even if it’s significant to the plot, and then ask nettlesome story questions later because they missed some bit of exposition. Similarly, many people aren’t sensitive to the aural brightness of a mix that causes others to promptly invoke “re-eq.”

Your comments about fidelity are generally well-taken but they reprise what’s problematic about Tony’s totalizing comment: I would argue that fidelity is not an either/or proposition. There are gradations. One signal can be more faithful than another. If I’m playing back a terrific DVD-Audio disc and judiciously use an equalizer to smooth out the spectral balance, I would strongly disagree with anyone who argued that that equalizer “defeats,” “disables” or otherwise obviates the higher resolution of the DVD-A format and knocks me back into CD territory.

Now, academics aside here's the most probative sauce for this goose. Like a palooka, I haven't bothered to read my whole manual. I've checked it now and it states in pertinent part:

"The effect level of this [Dialog Enhancement] function vary (sic) depending on the disc. (Bold mine)

"This function is effective only in playback of Dolby Digital recorded HD DVD or DVD video discs.

"This function is effective only when "Speaker Setting" is set to "2ch.""

If the manual is correct, I'll take the first (sips of) egg (nog) . . . before passing the mug around for a few others to partake.

For ready reference, the above info is on page 53 of the online HD-A1 manual.

On another (more on thread topic) note, here's hoping that Bill's speculation about Apollo 13 in his comments from last Friday afternoon do not come to fruition given the partial AACS crack that purportedly leaves this disc's keys unprotected.

 

[Douglas Monce]

This brings up another interesting twist on all this. Film sound mixes are frequently supervised by people who are NOT audio professionals. IE the Directors.

I sat in a mixing session for 3 weeks with a director who I can only assume was losing his upper register hearing. He kept asking the sound mixer to "make it brighter". To the point where everyone else in the room was holding our ears because it was so shrill.

I HOPE that the sound mixer went back and corrected the EQ once the director left and before it went out for duplication.

Doug

 

[Paul.S]

Good "real world" point Doug--thanks.

I think the manual is wrong re DE only applying to 2ch material. More later.

 

[Douglas Monce]

I think you maybe right. Did this perhaps change with the firmware upgrade?

 

[Paul.S]

That's a likely possibility. Unlike with some of the BD player upgrades, it's too bad Tosh has not provided a thorough description of precisely what each of their firmware upgrades does.