A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Grand Illusion -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Filmgazer]

Bruce (aka "haineshisway"),
I had no idea I'd create such a lively discussion from you and other participants regarding the grain structre of "La Grande Illusion" from Studio Canal! I'm not a fan of heavy grain either. I was just surprised from the screen-grabs I saw that there seemed to be SO LITTLE grain in the transfer for a film of that vintage, especialy since it was present in the previous SD release from Criterion. The images from the screen-grabs just seemed a bit "waxy" , that's all. I only meant to get Robert Harris's expert opinion on all of this -- which I got, as well as a lively mini-lecture from you on the issue of TOO MUCH grain. It's nice to find a place on-line where those passionate about home video can share their opinions!
Btw, are you still with Varese Sarabande, or have you moved on to another Broadway-related CD label? I have quite a collection of CD's on which you served as producer -- and perhaps performer, "Guy Haines".

 

[haineshisway]

Bruce (aka "haineshisway"),
I had no idea I'd create such a lively discussion from you and other participants regarding the grain structre of "La Grande Illusion" from Studio Canal! I'm not a fan of heavy grain either. I was just surprised from the screen-grabs I saw that there seemed to be SO LITTLE grain in the transfer for a film of that vintage, especialy since it was present in the previous SD release from Criterion. The images from the screen-grabs just seemed a bit "waxy" , that's all. I only meant to get Robert Harris's expert opinion on all of this -- which I got, as well as a lively mini-lecture from you on the issue of TOO MUCH grain. It's nice to find a place on-line where those passionate about home video can share their opinions!
Btw, are you still with Varese Sarabande, or have you moved on to another Broadway-related CD label? I have quite a collection of CD's on which you served as producer -- and perhaps performer, "Guy Haines".

I hope you know we were only having fun. I have my own label now, since 2005, called Kritzerland. We do soundtracks, shows, singers, and whatever's fun, plus the Blu-ray of my film The First Nudie Musical, and we're about to issue our second Blu-ray, which will officially announce next week. Guy sends his best
Re the heavier grain of the Criterion DVD - I don't believe it came from the same source - probably further away and therefore grainier.

 

[ReggieW]

I should add that two bonus pieces are missing from the US release:
Renoir's silent short (La petite marchande d'allumettes - 32 minutes) The Little Match Girl from 1928 (in SD PAL) & "Francoise Giroud remembers" which contains some interesting information from shooting La Grande Illusion for about 11-minutes.
I understand their importance is relative, but these two features totaling 43 minutes might be important to some, especially when you consider that fans who have region B playback can presently get that disc from AmazonUK cheaper than the US release missing the pieces.

 

[SeanAx]

I am so pleased to read that this rave. I just received my review copy and hope to look at it this weekend.

Re: grain on DVD and Blu-ray. I know this isn't news to most of you, but keep in mind that you don't get the whole story of the film grain from even the best screen shots. At least as important is the way it behaves in motion. I've seen digital transfers seem very accurate to the film grain on a frame by frame basis, but become overly busy and distracting in motion. I don't know the technical reasons for it, but it is clearly an issue that has to be addressed with every new digital format and delivery system. Even the first Criterion Blu-rays of black-and-white classics suffered from this problem (I'm thinking of their "The Third Man" in particular) but they confronted and overcame the problem in just a couple of months with Blu-rays of "The Seventh Seal" and "Last Year At Marienbad" that preserved the integrity of the film image (including the film grain) without overcompensating. To me, at that time in the evolution of Blu-ray mastering, those discs were the closest I had come to seeing a flawless film print projected onto my screen.

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Kevin Collins /t/322601/a-few-words-about-the-grand-illusion-in-blu-ray#post_3954492
Great news! Glad to see something done right. I would have been equally skeptical regarding LG and StudioCanal doing this right. It's as if they consulted you on the transfer?!

There are some superb digital technicians and film archivists in Paris. When the right people work together... Simply a combination of desire, knowledge and respect.

RAH

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Filmgazer /t/322601/a-few-words-about-the-grand-illusion-in-blu-ray#post_3954522
Bruce (aka "haineshisway"),
I had no idea I'd create such a lively discussion from you and other participants regarding the grain structre of "La Grande Illusion" from Studio Canal! I'm not a fan of heavy grain either. I was just surprised from the screen-grabs I saw that there seemed to be SO LITTLE grain in the transfer for a film of that vintage, especialy since it was present in the previous SD release from Criterion. The images from the screen-grabs just seemed a bit "waxy" , that's all. I only meant to get Robert Harris's expert opinion on all of this -- which I got, as well as a lively mini-lecture from you on the issue of TOO MUCH grain. It's nice to find a place on-line where those passionate about home video can share their opinions!
Btw, are you still with Varese Sarabande, or have you moved on to another Broadway-related CD label? I have quite a collection of CD's on which you served as producer -- and perhaps performer, "Guy Haines".

This is the situation, and it can get a bit complex, as film elements have changed measurably throughout the decades.

By the 1930s, the fourth decade of filmmaking, the grain structure on camera stocks was reasonably fine-grained -- nowhere near where it was in the 1980s to the present, but reasonably fine-grained, regardless.

Duping stocks, however, were not really duping stocks. Lavenders were basically print stocks on a tinted base to withhold contrast in printing. How different they were from the earliest actual fine grain stocks, would have to be researched. But they weren't great.

Today, when we go from (and let's use a 1930s original negative as a source) an OCN to a fine grain to a dupe neg to a print -- four generations, one can hardly see an increase in contrast, and grain is reduced. During the duping process, since the duping stocks have far less grain than the originals, what one might see is a slight softening of the edges of the individual grains, with a final product that looks slightly more "velvety" than the original. Less obvious grain.

In the 1930s - 40s, contrast would bloom after multiple generations, shadow detail would be lost, and grain, each layer building on the earlier, would become more harsh.

The Criterion version was derived from a fine grain, and looks terrific for what it is. A standard definition disc.

With the Lionsgate / SC restoration, what we're seeing is the original film grain, which would not change measurably, whether scanned from the OCN or from a new FGM.

And this is why the new Blu-ray looks as good as it does, and why in comparison, the Criterion SD looks grainier, with more contrast, and less shadow detail. The Criterion is a beautiful DVD, but based upon the elements available to them, it is what it is.

RAH

 

[Lord Dalek]

The Criterion Laserdisc may have been derived from a multi-generational element but I was under the impression that the dvd was transferred from the ONeg when it was found in 1999.

 

[nealg]

From the accompanying booklet, back cover (Criterion 1999 DVD):
ABOUT THE TRANSFER
Grand Illusion is presented in its original
theatrical aspect ratio of 1.33:1. This
new digital transfer was created from
a new 35mm fine-grain master made
directly from the rediscovered camera
negative. The sound was created
from the newly restored digital audio
master.

 

[haineshisway]

From the accompanying booklet, back cover (Criterion 1999 DVD):
ABOUT THE TRANSFER
Grand Illusion is presented in its original
theatrical aspect ratio of 1.33:1. This
new digital transfer was created from
a new 35mm fine-grain master made
directly from the rediscovered camera
negative. The sound was created
from the newly restored digital audio
master.

Yes, and in 1999, with DVD compression the image was the image. We're in the year 2012 now and things have progressed much.

 

[Ignatius]

Contrary to popular belief, Lionsgate has "sat on" very little from the StudioCanal Collection. Lionsgate can only release titles that a) StudioCanal has released, and b) they have the rights to release in the US.

My mistake (and one which I'm certainly happy to have corrected)! Thank you very much for the list.

 

[JoshZ]

As a Studio Canal Collection disc, I presume that the music over the menu is 20 dB louder than the movie, and will blare at deafening volumes.
Always mute your volume before loading a Studio Canal Collection disc. You may cause yourself some hearing damage if you forget.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by Moe Dickstein /t/322601/a-few-words-about-the-grand-illusion-in-blu-ray#post_3954514
If it's about branding, it's funny they prefer Lionsgate to Criterion...

Staying with Criterion would mean Criterion getting all the praise. With Lionsgate and a "StudioCanal Collection" label, StudioCanal gets most of the praise.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by Ignatius /t/322601/a-few-words-about-the-grand-illusion-in-blu-ray/30#post_3954651
My mistake (and one which I'm certainly happy to have corrected)! Thank you very much for the list.

No problem. I too thought LG was stiffing the US market until I looked at the situation a bit closer a few months ago.

 

[Eerik]

From the accompanying booklet, back cover (Criterion 1999 DVD):
ABOUT THE TRANSFER
Grand Illusion is presented in its original
theatrical aspect ratio of 1.33:1. This
new digital transfer was created from
a new 35mm fine-grain master made
directly from the rediscovered camera
negative. The sound was created
from the newly restored digital audio
master.

And from StudioCanal UK press release:
Having previously restored the film in 1997, STUDIOCANAL and Cinémathèque de Toulouse decided to complete a new restoration utilizing 21st century cutting edge technologies. Scanning the original nitrate at 4k means that the film will be preserved now for at least a century.

 

[Doctorossi]

for at least a century

Nothing like pulling a nice number from the nether regions to overstate your point.

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi /t/322601/a-few-words-about-the-grand-illusion-in-blu-ray/30#post_3954687
Nothing like pulling a nice number from the nether regions to overstate your point.

Digital restorations, if not recorded back to film, are set for 6-7 years, or until the data corrupts. Whichever comes first.

I'm currently running some tapes that were archived back in 2003-4, and am concerned.

RAH

 

[Ignatius]

Digital restorations, if not recorded back to film, are set for 6-7 years, or until the data corrupts.  Whichever comes first.
I'm currently running some tapes that were archived back in 2003-4, and am concerned.
RAH

Is there a trend now toward archiving restorations on hard drives or are they still put on tape? And since recording back to film is probably considered an unnecessary cost these days, how often do studios tend to do it?

 

[Moe Dickstein]

Staying with Criterion would mean Criterion getting all the praise. With Lionsgate and a "StudioCanal Collection" label, StudioCanal gets most of the praise.

I see your point in that regard. It's rather like when Merchant Ivory wanted their own label and it was distributed through Home Vision (Criterion Partners and distributors before Image) rather than made a numbered part of the CC.

 

[JParker]

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/322601/a-few-words-about-the-grand-illusion-in-blu-ray
(Edited to incorporate more relevant quotation on the quality of the restoration by Mr. Harris)

Dependent upon who is behind the restoration, the purpose of said restoration, and then intent, financing, and respect of the film, everything is up in the air.
I've sampled enough to Grand Illusion, a film that I've seen dozens of times, to realize, even at the main title, that I was seeing something extraordinary, for the first time.
Beautifully scanned, with absolute respect for the look of cinema, blacks, shadow detail and the use of gray scale. Digital clean-up -- where anything can go wrong -- audio restoration.
I could go on...
When I see this, it tells me that whomever was overseeing the project, was not only in sync with those overseeing the video master and final work toward Blu-ray, but understands what they're looking at, and has respect for the film and the filmmaker.

This is truly wonderful news, especially considering the rather dreadful run of luck regarding quality recently with other (American) releases. Co-incidentally, I had read the review at the distinguished competiton earlier and they posted this information on the restoration, which was done by an Italian firm:
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/La-Grande-Illusion-Blu-ray/44898/#Review

With the advances in technology, especially as restoration has entered the digital age, Studio Canal and the Toulouse Cinematheque (where the negative resides) sponsored a sparkling new 4K scan and restoration, done by Bologna, Italy based Ritrovara [sic] Lab. The new restored version was screened theatrically recently and now home video enthusiasts can see the fruit of the restorative labors on this gorgeous new Blu-ray.

I think this is their website, which may be of interest to readers...
http://www.immagineritrovata.it/en/
http://www.immagineritrovata.it/en/film-restoration/servizi/

is a highly specialised film restoration laboratory. It was born and developed thanks to the good work of the Fondazione Cineteca di Bologna, with which the laboratory is in continual close collaboration.
Today, L'Immagine Ritrovata is an international point of reference in the field, due to its development of methodologies, its constant research work and the vast range of its activities in the restoration of world cinematographic heritage. The equipment with which the laboratory is furnished - facilities that include all workflows, from 4K to photochemical - is at the forefront of technological innovation and is designed for the restoration of film from every cinematic age.

(Even if this isn't the facility that did the work this is pretty great stuff, I think!)
And they have classes too: http://www.immagineritrovata.it/en/summer-school/ & http://www.immagineritrovata.it/files/SelectedParticipants2012.pdf

Summer School
There is no way to learn the craft of a film restorer other than by apprenticeship, as no class at university level would reach this goal. As a matter of fact, since 2007 Cineteca di Bologna – in collaboration with FIAF, ACE and UE MEDIA Plus Programme – has been promoting and hosting the FIAF Film Restoration Summer School, opening its highly specialized state-of-the-art laboratory, L’Immagine Ritrovata, which has been working in the film restoration industry for over 20 years.
The main purpose of this project is having selected participants experience hands-on the work of actual restoration professionals. They will also meet restoration experts from all over the world, as well as the Laboratory and Cineteca staff.

Perhaps one day you could teach a master class, if that interests you? And not necessarily here. And if you have and like to share your experience, feel free to do so (at whatever thread you'd like).
Are you familiar, Mr. Harris, with L'Immagine Ritrovata? It's all new to me. Again, fantastic news, for a change.

 

[Reed Grele]

Digital restorations, if not recorded back to film, are set for 6-7 years, or until the data corrupts.  Whichever comes first.
I'm currently running some tapes that were archived back in 2003-4, and am concerned.
RAH

I've always been concerned about the longevity of my digital media. Some of my laserdiscs have "laser rot". Factory pressed CD's may be good for between 20 -100 years. Hard drives and memory sticks, who knows? I guess a bunch of redundant backups every 5 - 10 years might solve part of the problem.
Yet, records from the 1870's made of wax and shellac still play today! Vinyl LP's, stored properly, will probably outlast the pyramids.