A Few Words About A few words about...™ Fantasia -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[octobercountry]

This discussion about the sound on Fantasia has been pretty interesting! Unfortunately, I gather the original Fantasound sound mix no longer exists in any form and it really can't be recreated at this point, is that correct?


From what I understood (and please correct me if I'm wrong).... Fantasound involved four optical tracks on a separate strip of 35mm film running in conjunction with the film containing the picture. Three of those tracks were left, center, right behind the screen, and the fourth was a control track that regulated the power/volume of various speakers in the auditorium. Then, there was some sort of encoding/decoding going on with the three front audio tracks, which resulted in an additional three audio tracks for the auditorium---again, left, center, and right. However, those three auditorium tracks were spread out over many, many speakers placed throughout the space.


So, if my understanding is correct, what you basically had was a six-track stereo system, but one that was configured quite differently than any other motion-picture stereo set-up that would follow. It's impossible to precisely re-create Fantasound because of that, and in any case, the original mix is gone forever.


Personally, I really liked the Irwin Kostal re-recording, though that may not be a popular opinion! And I wish Disney would have made it available as an option on one of their Fantasia releases, but I guess it's never gonna happen. (Only problem there would be is that, if I recall correctly, the Pastoral segment was slightly trimmed for that release, so the new recording of the music mirrors the trims in the film. I believe that in the current version of Fantasia, there are no actual cuts in the running time of the Pastoral, just some digital zooms and digital erasures.) For instance, Kostal used a completely different arrangement of "Night on Bald Mountain" which is MUCH more dynamic and exciting than the original---it makes a huge difference in the excitement level, when watching that sequence.

 

[bigshot]

This discussion about the sound on Fantasia has been pretty interesting! Unfortunately, I gather the original Fantasound sound mix no longer exists in any form and it really can't be recreated at this point, is that correct?

The original elements for Fantasound no longer exist, nor do the original recording elements Fantasound was derived from. In the original recordings the channels were separated into the different sections of the orchestra (strings, woodwinds, horns, etc). Six live sound mixers *performed* along with the film in real time, potting the various channels up and down and left and right to follow the action on the screen. This was recorded to be played back in theaters in the system you describe. Most people didn't see Fantasia in Fantasound. In general release, there was just a regular mono optical soundtrack, just like every other Disney animated feature. (During WW2, my Dad saw Fantasia in the Philippines on 16mm.)


In 1956, they wanted to re-release the film with an upgraded soundtrack. They knew it was their last chance to remix because the sound elements were beginning to show signs of deterioration. So they brought back one of the original men who mixed Fantasound for the roadshow release and had him supervise a recreation of what they had done over 15 years earlier. Disney did't have enough equipment to handle all the channels at once, so they played back the elements off site and piped the sound over telephone lines to the Burbank lot. They recorded to a modern stereo format, and that is the basis of every release of Fantasia since.


I believe the Pastoral sequence was edited for the 1963 release. The black centaurettes were cut out, resulting in nasty pops and jumps in the music, particularly in the scene where Bacchus falls down the steps. The primary reason they did the Kostal redub was to smooth out the jumps in the music in Pastoral with some re-arranging and re-scoring. I can't stand the Kostal dub myself because he is constantly out of sync throughout the entire picture, and the tacky re-arrangement of Stokowski's Toccata and Fugue neuters the whole segment and the music no longer matches the picture.

 

[t1g3r5fan]

I believe the Pastoral sequence was edited for the 1963 release. The black centaurettes were cut out, resulting in nasty pops and jumps in the music, particularly in the scene where Bacchus falls down the steps.

Actually, it was the 1969 re-release when the edits to the Pastoral Symphony segment were made.

 

[Craig Beam]

Okay, that does it. I must treat myself to a "Fantasia" comparison session. I've got the LPs (the ones in the triple gatefold album), the LD box set, the DVD anthology box set, and the BD.

This one?

I found it used a few years ago for a measly ten bucks. It's in pretty good shape, and I'm thrilled to have it.


I just found out about this the other day, but it seems Disney released a four-CD Fantasia Legacy soundtrack a few months back. It features the original Stokowski recordings, the Kostel re-recordings, plus a few extras (Claire de Lune, Sterling Holloway reads The Sorcerer's Apprentice and Peter and the Wolf, etc). I don't own it as of yet, but I'm pretty tempted (it's only $23.88 right now on Amazon!)....I wonder if it's an improvement on the earlier CD release.

 

[Charles Smith]

Yep, that one.

 

[octobercountry]

... I can't stand the Kostal dub myself because he is constantly out of sync throughout the entire picture, and the tacky re-arrangement of Stokowski's Toccata and Fugue neuters the whole segment and the music no longer matches the picture....

I honestly don't recall any problems with sync with the Kostal music. Though, since I haven't seen that version since 1982, perhaps I've just forgotten! All I remember is how much better Night on Bald Mountain was (in my opinion, of course) with the different arrangement.

 

[bigshot]

Go look at Stravinsky. It's a total mess.

 

[bigshot]

Stokowski's arrangement of Bald Mountain is much more true to Mussorgsky than Kostal

 

[octobercountry]

Stokowski's arrangement of Bald Mountain is much more true to Mussorgsky than Kostal

Are you sure? My understanding was that Stokowski's arrangement was adapted from an arrangement by Rimsky-Korsakov which in turn was adapted from the original by Mussorgsky. And the Kostal version is taken more directly from the Mussorgsky orchestration.


I suppose the reason that I don't have any objection to changes being made in the music for Fantasia (like the 1982 re-recording, or extreme re-mixing of the old soundtrack) is that the classical pieces used in the original were so extremely altered to begin with---it isn't like "pure" classical music is being tampered with. Stokowski made his own arrangements in many cases (different than the intentions of the original composers), the pieces were trimmed down for time, and rearranged in order, etc., etc. Plus, the recordings themselves were very artificial, with all the swooping effects from one speaker to another and forced changes in volume of the various instruments---and the original sound mix is long gone anyway. So, as long as what's left of the original track doesn't sound too bad and is available for home viewing, I have no real complaints. Well, other than I'd like the 1980s re-recording to be available as an option....

 

[octobercountry]

Go look at Stravinsky. It's a total mess.

Ah, but how? Can this be viewed anywhere? Far as I am aware, the re-recorded version hasn't been seen for thirty years.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I just found out about this the other day, but it seems Disney released a four-CD Fantasia Legacy soundtrack a few months back. It features the original Stokowski recordings, the Kostel re-recordings, plus a few extras (Claire de Lune, Sterling Holloway reads The Sorcerer's Apprentice and Peter and the Wolf, etc). I don't own it as of yet, but I'm pretty tempted (it's only $23.88 right now on Amazon!)....I wonder if it's an improvement on the earlier CD release.

FantasiaProdShot-520x520.jpg

I'd be curious to know if anyone has this too. I have the two CD set from I guess 1990ish? But if this was a significant upgrade I'd be interested.

I also have the single disc "Fantasia 2000" soundtrack CD from the original release. I played the heck out out of that thing back then, hard to believe its 15 years old.

 

[Lord Dalek]

The 1990 cd was pretty darn harsh sounding, probably because Disney was trying to electronically restore those high frequencies that were apparently lost in the 1955 telephone wire transfer. Still... I guess it was an improvement over the old lp.


Then again... its fairly possible that the film never sounded that great to begin with considering they recorded directly onto optical with no magnetic elements whatsoever (still only in Nazi Germany at that point).

 

[Tony Bensley]

The 1990 cd was pretty darn harsh sounding, probably because Disney was trying to electronically restore those high frequencies that were apparently lost in the 1955 telephone wire transfer. Still... I guess it was an improvement over the old lp.


Then again... its fairly possible that the film never sounded that great to begin with considering they recorded directly onto optical with no magnetic elements whatsoever (still only in Nazi Germany at that point).

Hi Lord Dalek!


Barring any unexpected discoveries of the original Optical Film Elements, I guess we'll never know for certain?


CHEERS!


Tony

 

[Powell&Pressburger]

I bought that new Disney four disc CD set and I own the 1990 CDs and the old Irwin Kostal CDs. I tried to do comparisons listening to them 2 channel on my Martin Logan ESL speakers but to be honest I wasn't hearing much difference. I will have to test it out again.


I also have the 1990 LD box set of Fantasia also and the DVD set. I did a few tests with the LD to the BLU for audio and at moments I thought the 2.0 audio sound was a bit better but other times I felt like the BLU audio was really good.


I also have my set up to do 2.1 and have it split so my sub gets more action.


Others who may have bought the new CD set should chime in. I'm not the best when it comes to hearing these differences. and keep in mind the electrostatic speakers make music sound really great but if the recording has hiss pops clicks etc these speakers will let that audio sound worse.

 

[bigshot]

Are you sure? My understanding was that Stokowski's arrangement was adapted from an arrangement by Rimsky-Korsakov which in turn was adapted from the original by Mussorgsky. And the Kostal version is taken more directly from the Mussorgsky orchestration.

Stokowski's arrangement went back to Mussorgsky's sketches. He was one of the greatest conductors who ever lived. Kostal was a fine house arranger for movies, but he wasn't even in the same universe as Stokowski. The only reason he was picked to re-score Fantasia besides the wallpapering over the cuts, was because he was in house and they wanted to be able to release soundtrack albums without having to pay the Philadelphia Orchestra a royalty.

 

[bigshot]

Then again... its fairly possible that the film never sounded that great to begin with considering they recorded directly onto optical with no magnetic elements whatsoever (still only in Nazi Germany at that point).

Noise reduction was the principle problem with Fantasound. All of those optical tracks stacking up on top of each other, each one with it's own bed of noise. They tried to mitigate it by compressing and decompressing using a carrier tone, but it could only help so far.


But one thing is for sure... Fantasia was never intended to have a natural sounding acoustic to the orchestra. From the very beginning, the concept was to cut the individual sections of the orchestra up into bits so they could be manipulated separately. They had no intention of trying to capture what an orchestra sounds like in a hall.

 

[Charles Smith]

Exactly.


Years ago, I was the kind of stuffed shirt who was all too quick to deride anyone arranging an established classical piece, and so I listened to Stokowski recordings pretty rarely. Thankfully, my attitude was corrected, and I love listening to his stuff now. But one huge, major reason in support of that is that he truly rehearsed his orchestras, and must have had great conducting technique (either that or they just got used to whatever he did when waving the stick), because the playing and precision are never less than incredible.

 

[bigshot]

Stokowski never used a stick. His instructions came through the precise movements of his hands. There are some videos of him conducting in his 90s on youtube. Check them out! There is a reason he was referred to as a magician.

 

[Lord Dalek]

Wasn't there allegedly a long standing grudge between Eugene Ormandy and Disney over Stokowski getting the Fantasia gig?

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Stokowski never used a stick. His instructions came through the precise movements of his hands. There are some videos of him conducting in his 90s on youtube. Check them out! There is a reason he was referred to as a magician.

Not to mention the design of the sorcerer in the Sorcerer's Apprentice segment was based rather heavily on Stokowski.