A Few Words About A few words about...™ Camelot -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[TheVid]

I watched the blu-ray of CAMELOT last night, and what particularly struck me was that every bit of dialogue was centered, and I don't think that was the case when I first heard it in the theater. It's noticeable right off the bat in the first scene when footsteps of the soldier telling Harris that the army is ready come neatly from the left channel and his dialogue is flat center. I'm thinking there was some directional dialogue at the theater, and all the dialogue on this blu-ray mix, albeit clear, has no spatial characteristics at all. If it was always that way, then the original sound design wasn't all that noteworthy compared to other musicals of the time. The best thing about this blu-ray mix is the separation and clarity of Newman and Darby's work. The detail in the orchestrations was very sweet and pleasing.
The picture was fine, and the brown color timing discussed earlier was not a detraction for me.
I'm not a big fan of this movie, mainly because it's heavyhanded and plodding. Harris is particularly hammy, but, to his credit, he gets better as the film progresses. Redgrave is cloying, trying too hard to be cutesy, but she too gets better once the adultery angle kicks in. Franco Nero turns out to be the best of the lot, adding a welcome, nicely-staged homoerotic touch in his big scene.
The Truscott production design and music supervision by Newman and Darby are worth the price of admission alone, so ultimately, I'm pleased to have this one on blu-ray.

 

[KPmusmag]

I watched the blu-ray of CAMELOT last night, and what particularly struck me was that every bit of dialogue was centered, and I don't think that was the case when I first heard it in the theater.

I can't speak to how it was originally, but I watched it again last night wearing earphones (courtesy to others in the house) and I found it amusing that in the scene where Arthur pours a glass of wine for Jenny, Lance and himself, you hear the clinking glasses far to the left where he is standing and pouring, but his voice is dead center. I never would have noticed that without earphones, I don't think. Pretty nit-picky, but it did make me wonder if the dialogue was originally directional. The only place I noticed dialogue directionality was when Arthur is running in a circle yelling, " A round table..." his voice did pan in the earphones.
One thing that does bother me, soundwise, is that in the "Lusty Month of May" sequence, after Jenny's solo, the orchestra is way too loud and overwhelms the choir.
Even after all that, however, I enjoy this movie and no matter how many times I see it I am in tears when Arthur says goodbye to Jenny. Vanessa Redgrave plays that very well.

 

[Jefferson]

For many releases now there has been distortion in Regrave's vocal track of "Take Me To the Fair", during the second verse (Sir Dinidan, I think?) as she is getting on her horse. Again, the entire thing sounds identical to the previous dvd release. I wonder if there is a releaase in history that has had so many "remixes" as this?

 

[Mark-P]

I remember hearing that a long time ago many stereo soundtrack masters were remixed to eliminate directional dialog. I think this was done for the VHS and Laserdisc markets because in those days displays were very small and home theater setups had quite a bit of space between the TV and the front speakers. Perhaps this is why the dialog is not directional on Camelot. It's unfortunate that they couldn't (or wouldn't due to cost?) preserve the original mix.

 

[RolandL]

I remember hearing that a long time ago many stereo soundtrack masters were remixed to eliminate directional dialog. I think this was done for the VHS and Laserdisc markets because in those days displays were very small and home theater setups had quite a bit of space between the TV and the front speakers. Perhaps this is why the dialog is not directional on Camelot. It's unfortunate that they couldn't (or wouldn't due to cost?) preserve the original mix.

Joe Caps would know the answer to which studios did directional dialog. I know Fox did. United Artists on some titles like Spartacus. I don't know if Warner Brothers did a lot of it if any.

 

[Paul Rossen]

Joe Caps would know the answer to which studios did directional dialog. I know Fox did. United Artists on some titles like Spartacus. I don't know if Warner Brothers did a lot of it if any.

Spartacus was Universal and indeed had a robust directional sound(as originally presented).

 

[Joe Caps]

I should have my copy of the Camelot disc by Tuesday, I am told.
A couple of notes.
During the Lusty Month of May, in the second part of the number, the orchestra was always louder than the chorus.
Camelot definitely had directinal dialogue.
Camelot is not part of the Cinemascope era, but during that era studios each had their own way of mixing.
Fox of oucrse had full directinal dialog. So did MGM. Waners almost never. You canlisten to all three hours of the Garland a Star is Born and never hear directional dilalogue or effects.
IN the sixties, everything changed for roadshows. most roadshow films had very directional dialog. Camelot certainly did.
Rest assured, when I get my copy of camelot, I will go through it and fully report here.. See you late Tuesday evening I hope.

 

[rsmithjr]

Several things happened to directional dialogue over the years.
1. Dolby Surround 2.0: This process took over in the late 70's because it did not add to the print cost (magnetic was superior but very expensive). Because it was matrixed, there was a strong need to center the dialogue. Otherwise, you risked "rear localization", where the dialogue could be heard from the rear channel. This meant that new films like Star Wars were mixed with centered dialogue. There were other restrictions over discrete sound as well. During the 80's, the use of 70mm prints increased substantially, largely because of the superior sound, but the Dolby-style mixes were maintained even in 6 track discrete magnetic. The LC and RC front channels became low-frequency only, rather than supporting a full 5-channel front sound stage.
2. Sloppy projection: Proper roadshow projection required a great effort to balance and maintain the sound system. We often rode gain to make sure that each presentation was optimal. This kind of attention left with the introduction of platter systems and multiplex houses.
3. Home video: Home video picked up the Dolby Surround process because it required only 2 transmission channels. Numerous older films were remixed to center the dialogue. Even though we now have discrete systems like Dolby and DTS, few films use their original directional mix. South Pacific comes close, but Camelot simply now has a centered mix. West Side Story is still somewhat directional, Ben-hur almost completely centered. HTWWS's wonderful directional mix is gone. You can sometimes rebalance with some benefit. There is no excuse for not at least giving us an extra audio track with the original mix, but we don't always get that.
4. Aesthetic changes: I am afraid that the current film aesthetic favors centered dialogue, with directional considered distracting. With all of the explosions and sound effects, layering the dialogue so that it can be understood is a challenge, and more easily done if the dialogue is always in the center.
The general trend has been that films and exhibition reached their apex sometime in the late 50's/early 60's and have gone downhill ever since. Directional dialogue is merely one instance.

 

[KPmusmag]

I recall seeing THE SOUND OF MUSIC in Todd-AO and being amazed at how it sounded like the dialogue was really coming from the character's mouths, no matter where they were on screen. The blu-ray of SOM has directional dialogue, but it doesn't quite give the same effect at home (at least on my system).

 

So, I watched this for the first time and unfortunately I wasn't impressed. I thought I was going to enjoy it when it started, and I did for the first 30 minutes or so. But after that, I stopped caring about the characters. Arthur was the only one I enjoyed watching. For such an epic film, there were far too many close-ups. The castle wasn't as magical as I thought it should have been. Camelot should have been full of magic. It was just a dreary experience for me. Sigh.

 

[Mark-P]

The reasons your home theater setup doesn't quite replicate the 70MM theatrical experience is because in a theater the speakers are behind an acoustically transparent screen, plus the fact that 70mm six-track has 5 screen channels opposed to 3 for home theater. If you can get your speakers right up to the edges of the screen it helps nail down directional dialog.

I recall seeing THE SOUND OF MUSIC in Todd-AO and being amazed at how it sounded like the dialogue was really coming from the character's mouths, no matter where they were on screen. The blu-ray of SOM has directional dialogue, but it doesn't quite give the same effect at home (at least on my system).

As for modern movies with directional dialog, check out pixar's Toy Story films. The voices are carefully mixed between the 3 speakers to place the sound wherever the character is located on the screen.

 

[RolandL]

I wish someone would come out with a list of DVD and/or Blu-ray titles that have highly directional dialog. It doesn't matter when I'm watching my 55 inch LCD as I'm using the TV speakers. But, when I'm in my home theatre room with a front projector, the three speakers below the image are perfect for it. I know someone started a thread years ago on HTF but it only had a few titles and only a few posts.

 

[rsmithjr]

I recall seeing THE SOUND OF MUSIC in Todd-AO and being amazed at how it sounded like the dialogue was really coming from the character's mouths, no matter where they were on screen. The blu-ray of SOM has directional dialogue, but it doesn't quite give the same effect at home (at least on my system).

I sometimes have reasonable success by balancing the channel levels. This is awkward with modern processors/receivers which are designed to do balancing as a part of the "setup" not as a part of normal operation, but it is often worth the effort.
SOM sounds much better after some tuning. Ben-hur benefits somewhat but the directionality just isn't there as much as it should be.

 

[RolandL]

Spartacus was Universal and indeed had a robust directional sound(as originally presented).

Yes, I meant Universal. I remember Robert Harris talking about the directional dialog on the DVD of Spartacus. Something about having the directional dialog used on one track and centered more on another.

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by RolandL /t/319939/a-few-words-about-camelot-in-blu-ray/90#post_3920925
Yes, I meant Universal. I remember Robert Harris talking about the directional dialog on the DVD of Spartacus. Something about having the directional dialog used on one track and centered more on another.

Good memory.

We prepared two versions.

One with the original 70mm five speaker mix -- wide proscenium -- single fx channel.

The other as in the newer format with three front speakers, baby booms, and a single fx channel.

RAH

 

[TheVid]

I should have my copy of the Camelot disc by Tuesday, I am told.
A couple of notes.
During the Lusty Month of May, in the second part of the number, the orchestra was always louder than the chorus.
Camelot definitely had directinal dialogue.
Camelot is not part of the Cinemascope era, but during that era studios each had their own way of mixing.
Fox of oucrse had full directinal dialog. So did MGM. Waners almost never. You canlisten to all three hours of the Garland a Star is Born and never hear directional dilalogue or effects.
IN the sixties, everything changed for roadshows. most roadshow films had very directional dialog. Camelot certainly did.
Rest assured, when I get my copy of camelot, I will go through it and fully report here.. See you late Tuesday evening I hope.

It's too bad, then, that this new CAMELOT blu-ray centralizes the dialogue track. I found it noticeably annoying all during an otherwise OK presentation. As for other Warners releases: I recall the blu-ray of MUSIC MAN having decent left-right dialogue placement for the most part, and MY FAIR LADY has it, although it seems to me that the AC-3 laserdisc was more spatial with regard to dialogue placement than the recent blu-ray.
I'll be curious to hear your take on the new CAMELOT blu-ray, since you've seen it so many times theatrically. In any event, I had a good Newman/Darby experience.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by Mike Frezon /t/319939/a-few-words-about-camelot-in-blu-ray/60#post_3919736




One other difference is nine dollars! Amazon has the current digibook listed today for $24.99 and the July 17th release listed for $15.99.

I can wait.

And the July release is now listed for $14.99 @ Amazon.

 

[Noel Aguirre]

My just arrived today- very disappointed in this brown/ orange look- not what I saw in 1967.
Total shame. And needs to be sharper too. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang has spoiled me.

 

[rsmithjr]

My just arrived today- very disappointed in this brown/ orange look- not what I saw in 1967.
Total shame. And needs to be sharper too. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang has spoiled me.

Try increasing the blue on your system and see what you think.
I have been pretty successful at bringing back the color balance I remember from initial theatrical exhibitions on otherwise good Blu-ray disks.
CCBB was filmed in 70mm and is a different animal.

 

[GMpasqua]

I thought the Blu-ray looked pretty close to the 70MM blow-up I saw in 1978 at the Warner during their week long run of the film.
Color was a Little on the brown side, but otherwise close to what was on screen. The DVD had the color pumped up too much and that image was too bright.

Some sound effects seemed to be missing - when the spear is thrown in "Take me to the Fair" there is no crash, and wasn't there music before Arthur yells out Merlin's name in "How to Handle a Woman" on the laserdisc release or is that just on the CD?

I found the blu-ray to be quite satisfactory (much better than the "My Fair Lady" fiasco)