2003 ML Baseball Playoff Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Jason Seaver]

I think this paragraph from www.bostonsportsmedia.com sums up how I feel this morning:

As for last night, I'm sure in time, he'll come to be known at Aaron bleeping Boone. Grady Little will be criticized into the next century for not pulling a laboring Pedro Martinez to start the eighth. So be it. I can handle the loss. I can even handle Yankee fans, who I believe got themselves at good scare and whether they admit it or not, developed a healthy respect for this Red Sox squad. What I will not be able to handle is nitwit columnists who profit off of this loss, or the nationwide ignorants who proclaim last night the latest chapter in an ongoing curse. Those I will not be able to stand, and I dread having to listen to and read them over the winter and into next year. There's no way I'm going over all the articles today, as almost of them try to connect last night to events that happened 16, 25, 28, 54, and 57 or more years ago.

Not getting anywhere near the paper today.

It'll be interesting to see what next year brings for the Sox - the lineup will be more or less intact (I think Todd Walker is the only departing free agent, with Ortiz eligible for arbitration), the pen got itself together during the postseason and is mostly returning, and there's roster and salary space to upgrade the pitching.

The big question is picking up Grady's option or extending his contract. I say no - even though I feel leaving Pedro in was justifiable, a gamble that just didn't work out (it's always tough to convince yourself that replacing Martinez with someone else is an improvement), he never seemed to get the hang of bullpen usage, he decides to play small ball at bizarre times, and just seems overmatched mid-game. That he's apparently a good manager of people is big (it's why Joe Torre is good for the Yankees despite doing things like playing Todd Zeile), but I can't help but think a second-place finish with this historic offense was underachieving.

 

[Jason Seaver]

1. This is the same team that the MLB threatened to contract.

Uh, no - the Twins and Expos were on the hit list. The Marlins were on the list of "maybe it would be a good idea", right below the Devil Rays.

I guess I'm rooting for them, too, although the idea of a team given to Jeffrey Loria after he finished the job Claude Brochu started destroying the Expos winning a World Series is repugnant. And Jack McKeon's whining after they got their ass kicked but good in Boston didn't exactly endear him to me. But Ivan Rodriguez re-establishing himself catching a bunch of great young pitchers was a fine story this year, and, hey, they're not the Yankees.

Of course, I won't actually be watching the series - I've got other plans for this week and, really, I've had as much of Tim McCarver, Derek Jeter, and Karim Garcia as I can stand for the year.

That said... I think Fox noticeably improved last night. Fewer annoying cut-aways, they cut the curse crap to a minimum, good use of the mega-slo-mo, and during the first couple innings, Buck & McCarver were actually able to shut up and let me watch the game.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Joe Torre knew when to pull his ace; Grady didn't. And there's the difference in the ballgame.

This is the worst loss I've ever seen as a Red Sox fan, and this one had nothing to do with some bullshit curse. This one went down simply because of a spectacularly bad decision made by the team's manager. End of story.

So, it's the expansion team vs. the evil empire, and as much as I respect so many players on both clubs, I couldn't care less. I don't want to ever watch another baseball game as long as I live.

 

[MarkHastings]

Eric Paddon, I am not accusing you of anything, but if you want to stop the animosity of Red Sox fans, PLEASE make sure the Yankee fans quit resorting to "classless" acts of chants - "1918" or "The Curse", etc.

There is such a thing as a sore loser. Again, not necessarily you, but you attack Sox fans for yelling back when they are just trying to protect themselves from Yankee fans who feel the need to be smug in thier victories.

Is it really necessary to rub Sox fans's nose in the loss? That to me screams "classless remarks". I have no issues with a Yankee fan being excited about winning. I think it's great that they have a victory to cheer, but to take that victory and resort to smug remarks in the direction of the losing teams fans is awful.

As a Sox fan, I admit defeat graciously until a NY fan has to start crap about 1918, or 1986, or the Babe, etc. You should realize the frustration of a Sox fan and know that any antagonism will result in animosity.

A Plea to NY fans: Take the victory and ignore the Sox comments. If a Sox fan needs to vent, let him dig his own grave and look like the poor sport. Don't egg him on with your smug comments. You're as much to blame when you start giving it back - no matter who started it.

 

[LarryDavenport]

Grady and Dusty should not get Manager of the Year awards. Both of them blew their teams opportunity to win by leaving in the starters an inning to long.

I guess I'll go back to scanning the news for Mariner transactions because the season is over for me.

 

[Eric Paddon]

"Eric Paddon, I am not accusing you of anything, but if you want to stop the animosity of Red Sox fans, PLEASE make sure the Yankee fans quit resorting to "classless" acts of chants - "1918" or "The Curse", etc."

Did you see my two earlier posts last night in which after Boone's homer I said "Boston does not suck" and in a later post said, "To my fellow Yankee fans, please no 1918 chants and just enjoy the victory?" They are there a few pages back and that's exactly what I think should be the proper attitude today.

My anger last night was directed at an anti-Yankee fan, not a Red Sox fan as it turned out and because I didn't appreciate remarks that (1) suggested I was on crack for saying baseball fans in general should be able to appreciate the World Series no matter who is playing and (2) an old remark about the Yankees winning being part of a cancer on the game. Those were the remarks I took exception to, and not because of any desire to bash Boston.

 

[Ralph Summa]

That's it in a nutshell.

When the Sox went down 0-2 to Oakland, I kissed the forehead of my sleeping 3-year old and said, "If the Sox losing is the worst thing going on in my life, life is pretty damn good."

That mantra just aint cutting it today.

 

[Mike Broadman]

I'll just weigh in on the Yankees vs Sox fans, and remember that this is simply my own personal experience.

I was born in Brooklyn but never cared much for baseball, so I'm not a Yankees fan. I lived in New England for 4 years, two of which were in Boston and moved to Jersey last year. I've been to one Yankee game and ended up near Fenway a lot during games because Kenmore Square is a popular social area. So, I think I have a pretty good feel for the cultures of both cities.

In New York, I rarely if ever hear anything about the Red Sox. To NY baseball fans, they're just another team. Those who've been into the game a while appreciate the historic traditions of both teams. But that's pretty much it.

In Boston, I literally heard more Yankee bashing than Red Sox cheering. It got to the point where I started to believe that Boston baseball fans didn't really care about the Sox, just about the Yankees losing. When the Yanks faced the Diamondbacks in the WS, I of course expected them to root for the DBs, but it went beyond that: all of sudden, they became fans and cheered them as if they were the Sox and knew all about the players, etc. Pretty disturbing. And then when the Yanks lost, they said things like, "Hah, now they know how it feels!" Zuh?

But I still wouldn't care if it was all just relegated to baseball, something that doesn't affect me. It's when the "Yankees suck" chants happened elsewhere: clubs, stand-up comedy shows, a Rush concert! A freakin' Rush concert?! I couldn't go see my favorite band without hearing this pathetic nonsense.

Of course, the chant itself is idiotic: the Yankees do not suck since they win all the time.

And, as someone mentioned before, during the Pats' win. I root for the Pats and cheered along with the rest of Boston when they won. But they had to go and do that to remind me of the dark side of Boston fandom.

So, yeah, I rooted for the Yankees and I will forever pray for the Sox to lose, if only for their fans to deservedly suffer until they fix their attitude. Now that the Yanks won, I don't really care about the WS, except that if they win it again it will only upset Sox fans more, which is cool.

A devastating comeback in game 7 for the penant won by some no-name was an almost-perfect moment of glory. The only thing that would have made it better was if it were in Boston.

The only people associated with the Sox who I feel a bit bad for are the players themselves, who in all this mess played like champs and sportsmen.

Mark, I'm sorry, but this whole rubbing the Yanks' wins in Sox fans is something I have never noticed.

 

[MikeDeVincenzo]

Noted and enthusiastic Yankee-hater Jim Caple of ESPN.COM wore a Yankees shirt in the Fenway bleachers and a Red Sox shirt in the Yankee Stadium bleachers.

I think the results speak for themselves.

"I wore a Red Sox T-shirt in the Yankee Stadium bleachers and a Yankees T-shirt in the Fenway Park bleachers during the playoffs this past week. And having done so, an apology might be in order for all the Yankees fans I have gleefully insulted over the past few years.

Not that I actually WILL apologize, mind you. I'm just saying that an apology would be in order if I was a bigger man."

Continued here...


http://espn.go.com/page2/s/caple/031014.html

 

[Mark Schermerhorn]

Re: Red Sox fans vs. Yankee fans

This is why I posted the comment on the dynamics between myself and an ex of mine. Here is a summary:

me: "how could you be so mean to me? I loved you!"
her: "would you shut up? I've got things to do and hot guys to date."

So while I was licking my emotional wounds, thinking about her and trying to get over her, she had already forgotten about me and was off to other things. The fact that Red Sox fans cheer against the Yankees as much as their own team, and Yankee fans don't give much thought to the Red Sox is no suprise. The dynamics are the same. So I'm not bothered by the way Sox fans often behave. It's easy to be nice when you live in an Ivory Tower.

 

[MarkHastings]

Did you see my two earlier posts last night in which after Boone's homer I said "Boston does not suck" and in a later post said, "To my fellow Yankee fans, please no 1918 chants and just enjoy the victory?"

Yes I did, and I am glad to see a gratious Yankee fan. I just wanted to point out where a lot of this animosity stems from.

And Mike, that link was interesting, but a lot of this "wearing the visiting teams shirt" all depends on the fans. Every situation is different and one can never say that one stadium is nicer to opposing fans than the other.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Yankees do not suck since they win all the time

When are people going to realize the reason behind the "Yankees Suck!" chant. It's not because the Yankees suck, they are the winningest baseball team in history and the majority of Red Sox fans are not that stupid. As I explained to my buddy who made the same "if they suck, how come they win all the time" argument to me - They don't suck because they lose, they suck for Red Sox fans because they win. Every. Damn. Time.

That being said, as one who has never blamed a manager (for the simple fact managers do not control 95% of what goes on on the field) - this one lies with Grady and Grady only.

Leave him in for the 8th - OK, not bright, but OK
Leave him in after Jeter doubles - maybe
Leave him in after Williams singles and Jeter scores - no way
Leave him in after Matsui doubles - now I know Grady had a different agenda from winning the game

I said it 1000 times this morning. Grady wanted to write Pedro Martinez's legacy for him instead of winning the game. He took a no-brainer and made it about emotion. Funny thing is, Pedro himself wrote his legacy and would have gone down as masterful if he left after the 7th. Two homeruns by Giambi and ahead by 3, pitching on a bad wing in Yankee stadium for the (probable) game 7 win, I'll take that legacy anyday considering the WS would likely follow.

BTW, Does anyone here doubt that if Pedro got out of the 8th, roughed up but up 2 or 3, that Grady would have run him out for the 9th? Grady was writing the headlines in his head - "Martinez wins in complete game at Yankee Stadium! Right Arm Found Behind Home Plate"

 

[MarkHastings]

They don't suck because they lose, they suck for Red Sox fans because they win. Every. Damn. Time.

True. We all know that the numbers speak for themselves.

And this series just proves that no team really SUCKS at all. The Yankees sometimes play as bad as Boston often does.

Do the Yankees Suck??? If they did, they wouldn't win most of the time?
Do the Red Sox Suck??? If they did, would the series go game 7 and into extra innings?

The answer is no.

Maybe the "Yankees Suck" chants aren't exactly meant as "it sucks that the Yankees win all the time", but it's this winning all the time that frustrates the fans into thinking that it sucks that the Yanks are so dominant. It's easier to chant "Yankees Suck" rather than chant "It sucks for us that the Yankees win every year!"

If you want perspective, just look at the "overrated movies" thread that was closed down. Once a movie becomes so popular and gets lots of awards, there are those out there that feel the need to bash it's popularity by saying "That movie SUCKED! I don't know why so many people thought it was good!"

When Titanic won all those awards, did it mean that the movie sucked??? No, it just sucked that no one else got a chance to win any awards for the great work they did.

So do the Yankees suck at playing ball? No. But does it suck that they stole the chance for the Sox to get a WS win. Of course. It sucks that the Yanks won.

 

[Lowell_B]

"Martinez wins in complete game at Yankee Stadium! Right Arm Found Behind Home Plate"

Classic.

I'll try to keep this short, I've used up enough energy already. Ick. It is very, very bizarre reading through this thread and seeing the exact same things I was thinking during the game. Me: "Hey, there's only 5 outs left, and the Sox are up by 3, this is when the Cubs lost it right?"

One inning later: Me: "....."

Grady Little is by far the single most moronic baseball manager in the history of the game, Grady Gump indeed.

It has nothing to do with second guessing either, EVERYONE I know was saying "Get Pedro outta there." before the 8th even started. To even put him in for the 8th instead of going to Timlin, then Williamson is bizarre, but to keep him in batter after batter after batter is just absolutely mind-boggling.

A piece of the silver lining is that, had I had a choice, Aaron Boone would probably be the one I'd have wanted to hit the game winner. Even as a die-hard Sox fan, after the slump he was in, you have to feel a touch of happiness for Boone.

"This is the Year." It sure was. In spite of everything, you can't say we didn't get an entertaining 2 series.

GO FISH!

Lowell

 

[Mike Broadman]

Dudes, I understand what the chant means. But "sucks" usually refers to a person's or groups talent, ie, Kenny G sucks. I just think they could have come up with a better chant, like "Go Sox!"

If you want perspective, just look at the "overrated movies" thread that was closed down. Once a movie becomes so popular and gets lots of awards, there are those out there that feel the need to bash it's popularity by saying "That movie SUCKED! I don't know why so many people thought it was good!"

I don't like that either and like to think I outgrew that attitude. But at least movies aren't really competitive (just because some people give them little gold statues doesn't make it so- a film is supposed to stand on its own), wereas sports is direct competition. In other words, it's one's opinion whether or not Titanics is a good film and winning an Oscar doesn't prove it. But the Yankees this year were the better team because they won.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Oh, just a note. I am not a big fan of the "Yankees Suck" chant, despite my above explanation. Matter of fact, when riding the 'T' home from Red Sox/Yankee games, the only thing I usually say to a Yanks fan when they mouth off is "GO BACK TO CONNECTICUT". Usually shuts them right up and never, ever, ever have I had one say they were not from there.

 

[Brian Lawrence]

An interesting read on the TV ratings for these games.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

I just think they could have come up with a better chant, like "Go Sox!"

Well we tried "1918" and "Boston Sucks", but they were copyrighted aleady.

Besides, Boston is known for other legendary chants:

When chastised by Jose Canseco for our not very original "Ster-Roids" chant, the very next game we came up with "Just Say NO!".

"Dar-ryl, Dar-ryl"
"Nomars Better!"
"Over-Rated"
"Jail-Bird"

Yeah we have obnoxious ways of dealing with frustration, but we aren't always unoriginal.

 

[Steve_Tk]

It's not every year that the two teams everyone predicted to be in the World Series actually got there.

 

[Ralph Summa]

You're going to have your idiots in every place. Anybody see my post a few days back about Sox fans getting pelted with nickles and being gretted with chants "A$$hole?"

ESPN's Dan Patrick said a female friend and Sox fan was at the game last night. They were serenaded with "1918" chants all night and one of the girls that was with this woman had a note slipped into her purse that said "1918. Go home fat-ass."

Classy....