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post #211 of 448
11/20/06 at 9:33am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I get more of a Terry Gilliam Brazil vibe from The Fountain than TPM or AOTC vibe. It sounds like the film will require multiple viewings to understand it all.

Of course, I haven't seen it, so I am just guessing.
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post #212 of 448
11/20/06 at 10:17am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Yeah, I meant "TPM/AOTC" vibe just in terms of visuals v. script. There is also a bit of Matrix Reloaded undercurrent in the reviews as well (i.e. plot is complex or difficult to understand).
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post #213 of 448
11/20/06 at 10:31am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

It's not really fair to compare a Star Wars film to an Aronofsky film. Let's be honest...while there certainly were some artistic leanings in the Star Wars films, the later films were clearly also intended to sell figures, sprinklers, tie-ins, comics, video games, notebooks, models, etc. The Fountain has none of that. That is can visually compete with films costing 4 times as much is rather flattering to the director.

I did expect some real division with The Fountain...it sets itself up for that, and that is a good thing. TPM/AOTC was a matter of unmet expectations...not confusion over an exploration of the nature of life and love. It's much more akin to Solaris or Fight Club than a mainstream blockbuster.
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post #214 of 448
11/20/06 at 5:20pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Already some reviewers are comparing this film to Zardoz
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post #215 of 448
11/20/06 at 5:25pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill McA
Already some reviewers are comparing this film to Zardoz

I don't think that's being intended as a compliment. The several reviews I've read for this have thoroughly trashed the film as pretentious nonsense.
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post #216 of 448
11/20/06 at 7:08pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Odd. I've read several folks claiming it's the best of the year

I learned a few years ago that when a sci-fi movie is completely serious and emotionally honest with the premise, it's called pretentious. Many folks want their fantasy/sci-fi films to wink and have a sense of "place".

I haven't seen it, so it could very well be pretentious drivel, and I might be talking out of my ass. But I happen to think Aronofsky isn't trying to be pretentious...it doesn't seem to be in his nature. Hence, comments calling it pretentious (it may very well be nonsense...that's a different insult than pretentious) seem more a reflection of the reviewer and their tastes than an accurate observation about the material.

In short, any film that divides an audience so deeply is usually worth quite a bit.

Less than 40 hours
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post #217 of 448
11/20/06 at 8:04pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
It's not really fair to compare a Star Wars film to an Aronofsky film.

To be fair I was only comparing the reviews of the films, not the films themselves. And then, only comparing one specific criticism levied at both films: that the visuals were great, but the script was lacking. I don't really think that's unfair, Chuck. And I did notice that you didn't complain about my Matrix Reloaded comparison.

Also, I don't think we can really say that the films (as opposed to the reviews of the films) are comparable (or not) until we've actually seen The Fountain, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
TPM/AOTC was a matter of unmet expectations...not confusion over an exploration of the nature of life and love. It's much more akin to Solaris or Fight Club than a mainstream blockbuster.

Again, I was just comparing the reviews, not the films. And while many were disappointed with TPM/AOTC because of unmet expectations, many of the reviews praised the visuals but criticized the script...just like some reviews for The Fountain. That's my sole point.
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post #218 of 448
11/22/06 at 4:26pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

In lieu of a discussion thread, I can't just let the film percolate in a vacuum

Here is a very solid interview with DA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aronofsky
It's called The Fountain because a fountain basically sucks out from below, shoots it up on the air, it goes back into the earth, and goes around in a cycle. Even a tree is very much a fountain that moves extremely slowly: It grows up and up out of the earth, the leaves come out, the leaves die and fall down, they go back into the soil, and the tree comes back alive again.

Anyone notice that Queen Isabel's dress has ornate artwork resembling roots around her legs

So many references to stars and trees and water...all representations of life.

As Izzy loses physical sensation, she is gaining philosophical (mental) perspective.
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post #219 of 448
11/22/06 at 4:39pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I was reminded of "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card while watching "The Fountain".

The Nebula scenes were simply beautiful. I noticed Aronofsky used 1.85 AR, and it kept it much more intimate in scope, serving the film well.
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post #220 of 448
11/22/06 at 4:39pm

Re: The Fountain...Review

Won't be able to see this till Friday.....

But I'm seeing it on Saturday as well.


Chuck, tell us how it compares to the graphic novel when you get a chance to read it.
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post #221 of 448
11/22/06 at 4:56pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I agree the film was shot very intimately. The frame didn't encompass the entire actors' faces in many of the shots. The camera was very close.

Mike, I'll be reading the GN tonight or tomorrow. I can't wait.

Finally being able to read the Wired article Mike linked, the Nebula scenes cost much less than my house (which isn't expensive). And many of the A-list stars' cars. And the scenes are amazing.
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post #222 of 448
11/22/06 at 5:49pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Not that I ever participate to any great degree in any discussions, but I'm bummed that I'm out of town for the weekend and won't be able to participate in (or most likely just read) this one until Sunday evening.

I keep thinking about this one.

I agree with the above about the framing. So close you could see the imperfections of the skin. Not your typical hollywood fare.

So, is it too early to start asking some big questions? I'm never able to think deep enough on these sorts of things to grasp it all, but I just feel like asking...

Spoilers follow.

Tom and Izzy existed in the present and future (with Izzy as the tree), but only existed in her book in the past, yes?
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post #223 of 448
11/22/06 at 6:42pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

SPOILERS

That was exactly my interpretation while watching Steve. Tomas is how Izzy sees Tommy, and Isabel how Izzy sees his quest. Tom (future) is trying to get his wife's "body" to the nebula. I assume the tree grew over where she was buried, based on the story she told him. Tommy (present) becomes Tom. I don't think that is critical to the story...all three represent a quest to deny the cycle of death in some fashion, and all three end somewhat uniquely.

Of interest was the map of the knife. Three points, and in the center, the Tree of Life. The film had three stories...at the center, understanding/acceptance.
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post #224 of 448
11/22/06 at 6:48pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

What I thought was interesting was how lateral the camera angles were. For present day, it was mostly front to back or back to front, or from left to right and right to left, not a lot of sweeping angles. For the future, the journey to the nebula was more of an ascension from down to up, or going from foreground to a vanishing point into the clouds. For the past it was almost more straight-on, straight-forward.
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post #225 of 448
11/22/06 at 7:48pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I'm guessing/hoping this will soon be designated the discussion thread. Read the following at your peril if you haven't seen the movie. Not that it'll make a lick of sense if you haven't...

Quote:
Tom and Izzy existed in the present and future (with Izzy as the tree), but only existed in her book in the past, yes?
Or...the space section is just the ending to her story that Tom wrote, his way to "finish it." A metaphorical version of his final acceptance of Izzy's passing (and, ultimately, his own as well). I think I prefer to see it in those terms, rather than literally. He ended the story just as she said it should end, after all, incorporating all the ideas that she gave him (about the nebula, being reborn through the tree, the first father, etc.)

All in all..a pretty amazing film. The same story, told three different ways, in different eras, but all unified. Cyclical, which is the point.

And I bet it won't make a dime. There were a couple of walkouts in the screening I attended in Georgetown, and a good amount of head-scratching at the end. I can just imagine how the naysayers will pan this one --it is very earnest and nakedly ambitious, and thus ripe for parody.

--Jefferson Morris
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post #226 of 448
11/22/06 at 7:54pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Graphic novel...finally read. I sounded like a broken record in here. It's nice to finally rectify that. Well, the GN is basically the movie.

Spoilers (for both the GN and the film):
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The main differences are:
1) The ending is slightly tweaked in the film. In the film, Tommy lays the seed at the grave in the present.
2) The backstory/intrigue in the past segment is made more subtle in the film.
3) Some scenes are shifted around...but not many.

It's a film I can't wait to watch again. Certain scenes moved me immeasurably when I saw it. A few confused me (again, towards the end). I think seeing them again, with the big picture, will do wonders.

I don't get the vitriol of many of the print critics. It's not about liking the film (that's personal preference)...but at least respecting the craft, love, and dedication that went into the film. Isn't noble intent worth something? Comments like banal and pretentious are so odd, as the film wrestles (gently and passionately) with one of the major pursuits of mankind and philosophy. With grace, even.

Thanks to the graphic novel...I can now properly spell Xibalba, the nebula.

That's something

EDIT: It'll make a dime, Jefferson. It'll just take a while. but I don't think The Fountain will be forgotten.
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post #227 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:11pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Oh, I agree it'll find its audience. But I wouldn't look for big numbers on its theatrical release. Not that that means anything or is really germane to this discussion, of course. It's a profound work of art. And you certainly don't see too many films that wrestle so openly with the human response to mortality. Bringing Out The Dead is the last one I can remember. And before that...dunno.

Regarding the comparisons to 2001: A Space Odyssey, I did find the film somewhat reminiscent of it in both its tripartite structure and the fact that both films very deliberately repeat visual motifs to create meaning. Kubrick's film, though, is only indirectly about death and transfiguration, whereas this film tackles that theme head-on.

Oh, and Hugh Jackman - great performance. If nothing else, I hope he gets some award recognition, which should in turn help the film.

Aronofsky on C.H.U.D. said he'd like to do this one as a Criterion special edition. Looks like the initial studio release on disc will be bare-bones, with no commentary.

--Jefferson Morris
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post #228 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:13pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I got to see The Fountain in a totally empty theater (except for me) this morning.
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post #229 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:13pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Quote:
Or...the space section is just the ending to her story that Tom wrote, his way to "finish it."

That's why I love reading these discussions on the htf. I would have never thought of that. I'm not saying if I think its right or wrong, I just never thought of it that way.
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post #230 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:17pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Loved the visual cues of Izzie's hair on the back of her neck early in the present day thread, and then later the responsive hair (to Tom's presence) on the tree in the future thread later reveals the nature of the tree and packs an emotional wallop.
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post #231 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:26pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Good point about the hair--another important visual motif. And did you all hear a faint woman's voice reacting in pain every time he cut a piece of bark? I believe I did.

Quote:
I'm not saying if I think its right or wrong, I just never thought of it that way.
It's definitely left ambiguous. You can interpret the ending literally, though I think it's a bit of a stretch to do so. But the film leaves that door open, since Tom's research did appear to be panning out.

I loved the symbolism of the "watership" taking him to the stars. More than anything, it reminded me of the Tralfamadore sequences in Slaughterhouse Five. And speaking of potent symbolism, how about that white sap spurting out of the tree...yikes.

--Jefferson Morris
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post #232 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:36pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I have to admit, for a while I thought a reel of Apocalypto got spliced into this film.
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post #233 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:54pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I thought the Nebula scenes were also Tommy's final chapter of the book. The scenes were I believe the only scenes when Izzy's voice echoed in the background saying, "Finish it," referring to finishing the book.

Izzy previously talked about the Nebula scenes and how it relates to when the Mayans die and their souls become stars (I forgot exactly what she said.)

Great film, I can't wait to watch it again. A lot of people may disagree here, but I wish 2001 was edited as tightly as this film.
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post #234 of 448
11/22/06 at 8:54pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

The 2nd Masterpiece of the 21st Century (Malick's The New World being the 1st).

Without question, the best film of the year and I've been a serious advocate of United 93 owning that spot since that was released in April.

The layers and interpretations of this film are numerous. It's going to take alot more viewings to fully understand this work...if ever.

Bravo, Darren.
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post #235 of 448
11/22/06 at 9:36pm

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Maybe it was me, but each time they showed the cross with the nebula on it, did the middle section have a different marking on it?

I liked how certain scenes repeated, and the final scene of Izzy asking Tommy to go outside with her, he follows her instead of his work, and this leads him to finish her book.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Izzy's death scene in the hospital was very powerful.

The Tommy character is in a tough spot overall, does he:

1. Stop working on his research to stay with Izzy even though his research may pay off and save her.

2. Continue working on his research to help save Izzy even though he may not have enough time.

3. Continue working on his research to help save Izzy and he may be in time to save her.



Hugh Jackman did a great job in this film.
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post #236 of 448
11/23/06 at 2:03am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

This is going to be a really divisive film. Just read this post on dvdtalk:

Quote:
This goes down as one of the most interesting audience reactions I've ever seen. I'd say there were about 100 people in the theater, and no exaggeration, 50 of them left halfway through with various degrees of laughter and "fuck this" and whatnot. (With each one leaving, I had to fight the urge to whisper, "Finish it!") When the credits began, another 15-20 people expressed more laughter and frustration and confusion, and I heard things like, "What the hell was that?" and "If you tell me you understood that, I'm going to kick your ass!" Once those people were gone, though, the rest of the audience (a good 30%) remained until the last second of the credits, the stunned silence broken only by the muffled sounds of people weeping. Observing the crowd was worth the price of admission on its own.

Reminds me of when I first saw Blade Runner nearly 25 years ago.
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post #237 of 448
11/23/06 at 9:19am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

I read the GN this morning after seeing this last night. Chuck has cleared up the few changes. I felt the film is much better...but, that may be just because I saw it first.

I'm going to post a bunch of posts in succession...they arent' double posts, I just want to separate each talking point.

What a film...
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post #238 of 448
11/23/06 at 9:24am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

First...how any critic can call this film pretentious is beyond me. It is the mirror image of pretense. It is so small, so simple, and so sweet. It is devoid of pretense and full of earnestness.

If anything, Ebert nails it when he says the key to the good and bad of the film lies in its dire earnestness. Its earnestness is both its folly and its greatest strength. If you find the subject of death/life/creation and the "cycle" pretentious...well, I guess you'll find this film pretentious.

I found it spiritually fulfilling.

The only thing I didn't like in the whole film was when Tom says:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I'm going to die.


I mean...this is seriously a studio note for idiots who don't get what is going on. For me, it slightly mars the most touching moment in the film.
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post #239 of 448
11/23/06 at 9:27am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

Let's talk Jackman.

This film is so intensely serious...not any actor could pull it off without illiciting laughter. But, Jackman sells me completely. He is so DAMN good.

This film won't get any awards attention because it is divisive and before its time...but, Jackman wins my best actor of the year award going away. From Izzy's death bed to drinking the sap to taking the final leap. He is so frigging powerful in this film.

Seriously...I am a fan for life.
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post #240 of 448
11/23/06 at 9:32am

Re: Darren Aronofsky's sci-fi epic "The Fountain" set to go

The imagery in this film is really what sets it apart from just about any other film. It is so nuanced and powerful. You've all hit on much of it, but I just wanted to go over some of my favorites that keep repeating in my mind:

The stars and sky of course are constant images. But, I liked how he did them differently - such as the hanging candles in the hall of Isobel.

The tree and fountain images are constant and beautiful. From the upside down-to right side up shots (the way a fountain recycles), to the roots on Isobel's coat/dress, to the rings on Tom's arm (the aging of the tree). So wonderful and thoughtful.

There are some great sexual images too - lots of phallic symbols (pyramids and trees), the vaginal imagery of sepulpa at the end, the sap and the wound. Not dirty sexual...just, sexual as part of the creation cycle.

Images are nothing in film without sound...and, the sound in this film is equally sublime. I love the soundtrack. Going to buy it today if anyone is open! Not only did I hear the slight sigh of a woman when he cut a piece of bark from the Izzy tree, but the crackle of static when the hairs raised was a perfect little detail.
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