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AMERICAN PSYCHO discussion (consolidated) (spoilers!)

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
I really had no interest in seeing this movie. But, it was on cinemax last night. I watched about 30 minutes before I went to sleep. I had read somewhere that in the end it is revealed that he did not kill anyone, but was either imagining it or dreaming it. Can someone clarify this?
Thanks!
post #2 of 43
The general consensus seems to be that all the killings are in his head. That they are merely fantasies. However, it's never said for sure and is certainly open to interpretation.

By the way, the book is better. And about 100 times more explicit.

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This is not a signature.
post #3 of 43
Quote:
And about 100 times more explicit.

Oh, goody.

Deane
post #4 of 43
I believe that the intention, at least of the book, was to keep you guessing as to whether the events were real or not. The movie seems to go over the top and would indicate that they are NOT real.

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Adrian Jones
post #5 of 43
Adrian was right, the end is to keep you guessing. I thought the movie was awesome because it really brought out the ideas in the book, more so than other books-to-movies. I read the book about 2 or 3 years before the movie came out and it was my wife that read the book right before we saw the movie. She said it had a pretty close adaption. The funniest scene in the whole movie is:
Spoiler:
When Bateman takes the axe and kills the one guy in his apartment while wearing a rain coat continuously talking about some band.


The movie was great with the intersting color tones setting themes that interlaced with the superficial themes. I enjoyed that.

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"I was born to murder the world." -Nix (Lord of Illusions)

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post #6 of 43
Thread Starter 
Brad, it was Huey Lewis' "Hip to be square" song that he was talking about. How do they explain in the movie that it might be all his imagination?
post #7 of 43
I prefer the interpretation that Bateman's murders were all fantasies, insofar as this is the only compeuppance that could possibly mean anything to him: to find out that the one thing that he thinks distinguishes him from his soulless brethren--his killing spree--never took place.

I found the book to be a remarkable, if somewhat punishing and repetitive, achievement. I'm still amazed that Bret Easton Ellis was willing and capable of putting himself into such a dark psychological space for the duration that the writing of the book must have required. Hoopla and controversy aside, it is a very serious, and in many ways, accomplished, work.

I thought Mary Harron and Guinevere Turner did an excellent job of distilling the psychological and philosophical meat of the text in their script, while making the material a bit less difficult to stomach. (A literal translation of the book would be alternately deathly boring and unwatchably gruesome.)

In short, you should watch the whole thing if you get the chance. It's more or less tied with Crouching Tiger as my favorite film of 2000.

--Jefferson Morris
post #8 of 43
I always personally took the ending to not be a clear cut sign that the killings hadn't taken place, rather the opposite.

People sighted the lady in the Apartment and the fact that all the bodies were gone with no trace to be a sign that the killings were his imagination. I took this to be a further symbol of greed- the apartment in that neighborhood was FAR too valuable to leave unoccupied for any duration of time- the landlady would be completely in her best interest (in movie terms) to clean the apt and dispose of the evidence- a police investigation and the stigma attached to a "soiled" apratment would be a serious financial hit.

People also sighted the lawyer claiming he saw Paul Allen in Europe as a clear sign that Bateman imagined the whole thing... I took it to be the opposite. Throughout the movie, there was a running theme of people mistakening one another for other people: the whole idea of a lack of individuality and that even if there were- no one would notice anyway (they are too self absorbed). I felt the lawyer's comments at the end, about seeing Paul Allen, was just a further selling of the point that nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about.

I think the overall theme that they guy could be completely insane, and horrible OVER THE TOP murderer and no one notices is the important one (although the above theme about how it is justice that the only thing that Bateman believes makes him different is fake, that's an interesting one too).

Everyone is so self-absorbed, so wrapped up in the mundane crap of greed and image that no one takes a moment to see the people around them. I'm not sure about the book (never read it), but I felt the ending was a complete spelling out of this "killer is ignored" theme.

I was actually suprised to find out that anyone believed the killings never happened.

The only evidence I can think of to support the fact that it didn't happen was:
1) The chainsaw in the hallway scene-- seemed too insane to ahve ever really happened- even in a movie. The fact that no one came out of their apartments, and that he managed to drop the saw multiple floors and still hit her- seemed like a fantasy to me.
2) The fact that the cop car blew up in a fireball when he shot at it- again could have just been a "movie moment"- but seemed out of place and made me wonder if it was a fantasy.

But overall, I thought the Landlady and the Lawyer actually proved he DID do the crimes, and further pushed the themes of the film...

-Vince

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AIM: VinceMaskeeper

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[Edited last by Vince Maskeeper on October 25, 2001 at 03:05 PM]
post #9 of 43
Quote:
so wrapped up in the mundane crap of greed and image that no one takes a moment to see the people around them

That was really the point of the book/movie; an eighties satire, if you will. All about the superficial, nothing about the inner beauty. Which really is the epitome of the eighties and is subtly and at times, outrageously themed throughout the movie/book.

The book is good, but gets boring in parts because he rants for whole chapters about particular singers/bands. I really didn't like reading a whole chapter (life and times) on Whitney Houston. I thought that was better played on the screen because he was doing things while ranting about these subjects.

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"I was born to murder the world." -Nix (Lord of Illusions)

My Home Page http://www.geocities.com/masternix/DVD.html
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post #10 of 43
Vince said what I think. Saved me some typing. Thanks!
post #11 of 43
I agree with Vince, although you could make a strong arguement either way. Mistaken identity is a common theme in the film, and I think the ending is the paramount example of this.

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"Home is where the theater is!"
post #12 of 43
*SPOILER ALERT* The best explanation of the book I've heard is that Bateman has lost all his money in the big crash and that the book is a set of his thoughts, distorted memories and fantasies as he goes insane as a result of going bankrupt. At another level, the book is an exaggerated parody of sex and shopping novels.
post #13 of 43
Quote:
cop car blew up in a fireball when he shot at it- again could have just been a "movie moment

Vince, if you watch that scene again closely, you'll notice Bateman look at his gun then look at the exploding car is if to say, "did I do that?" I think is was meant as a surreal moment.

The sad part is that the studios want to come out with a sequel. No Christain Bale, No female director what's-her-name, No Brett Easton Ellis... god, if this movie does go through it will really suck.

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"I was born to murder the world." -Nix (Lord of Illusions)

My Home Page http://www.geocities.com/masternix/DVD.html
My List O' DVDs:
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&id=meshuga
post #14 of 43
Quote:
I think the overall theme that they guy could be completely insane, and horrible OVER THE TOP murderer and no one notices is the important one
An equally valid interpretation, and one that shifts the story more towards social satire, and away from character study. I'd be interested in hearing Ellis' thoughts on the subject.

For me, elements such as the police car blowing up (something right out of the kind of mindless action movie that Bateman probably enjoyed), along with the ATM message ("FEED ME A STRAY CAT") indicate pretty clearly that Bateman has a very tenuous grip on reality, and makes the "truth" of the entire narrative suspect.

--Jefferson Morris
post #15 of 43
Jefferson, read my two posts.
post #16 of 43
For me, what gave it away as a total fantasy, at least in the movie, is when he drops a chainsaw down a stairwell and kills the woman running away. That's just plain impossible!!

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Adrian Jones
post #17 of 43
Quote:
That's just plain impossible!!
and funny!

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"I was born to murder the world." -Nix (Lord of Illusions)

My Home Page http://www.geocities.com/masternix/DVD.html
My List O' DVDs:
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&id=meshuga
post #18 of 43
He did do it.

Spoiler:
When he went to go collect the bodies from his coworkers apartment, the lady (landlord) knew of his crimes. She didn't want any attention drawn to her or her tenants so she covered up the crime before showing the apartment to future tenants. Remember what she said to him when he came in the apartment? (This is not an exact quote as it's been awhile). "Did you answer the ad in the New York Times"? He replies, "Yes". She says, "There was no ad in the times. Leave now and never come back again."


I missed Vince's post above, so I basically repeated some of what he posted.


Jeff

[Edited last by Jeff on October 27, 2001 at 03:32 AM]
post #19 of 43
You guys know what the filmmakers want to do to you? There is no clear evidence in the one or the other directon but there are hints to both. So it is impossible to find a real answer.

What I liked about the book was that whether he fantasized or really killed those people didn't matter too much. It was a brilliant Satire (although I seldom recommend the book to my friends, as the violence is simply unbearable) and I simply didn't care if everything he thinks he went through really happened.

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-Dominik Dröscher ICQ: 25318265
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes."


[Edited last by Dominik Dröscher on October 27, 2001 at 04:09 AM]
post #20 of 43
Personally, I felt that it was very open ended. I choose to interpret it to be fantasy. I feel he may have killed the bum and the dog and possibly a couple others, but not the full fledged psychotic episodes he had. I feel he did maim some of the "ladies" he chose to entertain but, again, I feel that most of the murders, proper, were fantasy. I felt much the same about the book. I felt much the same about the e-mail thing they had going on before the movie came out (AP2K). Beautiful movie and an even better book. It definitely had its roots in satire, but it touched everything at such a deep level...

What is reality anyway but what we percieve? Do we truly have any non experiental criteria for evaluating what reality is? Is not all that we percieve filtered through our brain without any direct knowledge? Everything is filtered through the senses... How good is your computer that compiles sensations that exists between your ears? How fallible is it? Did it feel good stomping that dog to death? Does that say "Feed me a stray cat"? Beautiful.

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post #21 of 43
Quote:
The sad part is that the studios want to come out with a sequel. No Christain Bale, No female director what's-her-name, No Brett Easton Ellis... god, if this movie does go through it will really suck.

The film is in the can, and should be released (somewhere) soon. The plan, as I understand it, is to turn the AMERICAN PSYCHO into a b-movie slasher series of films (a 3rd is already in preproduction).

Low budget, late night cable fare. Probably will go straigh to video, like From Dusk Till Dawn 2 and 3.

-Vince

------------------

AIM: VinceMaskeeper

Do you want SOUTH PARK on DVD in order, rather than themed sets? Join our overwhelming majority!!
post #22 of 43
I read the book and saw the movie. The book I felt played out as if the murders were real. My interpretation of the part at the end when he is telling the lawyer that he killed Paul Allen and the lawyer saying it wasn't possible because he had lunch with him recently was that all of these people were so image conscious that they would lie about who they know to make themselves seem to be more important then they are (especially if Paul Allen himself isn't around to deny or confirm). Also it was a slap in the face of Patrick Batement because even in death Paul Allen could still one up him.

The movie on the other hand seemed to go with the whole "it was in is head" theory mostly because some scenes seemed over the top (like the cop car explosion) but mostly because of one small scene. In the scene with the chinese dry cleaners where he is arguing with the lady about his sheets, he tells her that "if you don't shut your f**king mouth I will kill you." The lady seems to be startled by his comment but then it cuts to him and her still aguing as if the moment never happened. I know it's a small thing but sometimes the little things mean so much.

Russy
post #23 of 43
Boy, I totally saw this film differently than the majority here. Of course, I haven't read the book which might be an influence on interpreting the film.

With that in mind, I thought the whole point of the ending was that Bateman turned out to be a bitter, hateful and totally ineffectual person completely incapable of acting on his own behalf. It's this very fact that fuels his murderous fantasies. They are his only outlet and are so violent because he needs to make up for so much inability in reality.

In his world, all people are shallow (he perhaps most of all) and self-centered. Everything is measured in status, yet the people with status control this world and deny any others access to more status. So Bateman has nowhere to go. He is stuck being a nothing in a world where that is the worst possible thing you can be. If he only had some human outlet where the inner-person could matter (like with his secretary) then he could find comfort with himself. But this idea is totally alien to him.

His facination with bland, VH1 music that he sees as sweeping across all genres while it really is a very small, focused style tells us more about the shallowness of his emotions. Think of High Fidelity in which Cusak tells us that he and his friends judge others by their taste in art (primarily music). Bateman's musical tastes tells us of his complete shallowness, and his pontification on these artists tells us that he is unaware that he has such simplistic (and safe) tastes.

So, not unlike the Columbine kids or so many other "oppressed/nerdy" people turned killer, he looks for his only chance at "power" by killing. But rather than give the character some sort of satisfaction and in some way "verifying" his outlet as reasonable at least in terms of being empowering, we find that even in this arena he can do nothing.

He is a frightening, hateful "Walter Mitty" with "big" dreams but the utter lack of inner-strength to accomplish anything, even murder. In the end the audiance sees him as pathetic, yet can hardly sympathize with him either.

I thought it was a viscious (yet needed) attack on this shallow Wall St business-yuppie lifestyle. I would equate it slightly in themes with "A Place in the Sun", which I saw recently, except in that film the one person who is "alive" is outside this lifestyle trying desperately to break in, and is therefore actually capable of such a crime.

Again, this is what I walked away from American Psycho feeling. Based on this thread I guess it's safe to say YMMV.
post #24 of 43
Vince, that's really lame to hear. I wish they would NOT do such things, but I guess since this is Hollywood we're talking about, there may be a buck to be made.

I wish this part of the book was shown in the movie:

(weak stomach's be warned)

Spoiler:
During the prostitute scene (I think, I haven't read the book in a couple of years), Bateman uses acid on a woman's vagina to make the opening larger. Then he spread cheese inside. Taking a cardboard tube from a paper towel roll or toilet paper roll, he put that in there and released a rat in the tube. It ate it's way to her stomach and then Bateman cut her body in half to watch the rat crawl out. He then killed the rat.


My god that's sick!

------------------
"I was born to murder the world." -Nix (Lord of Illusions)

My Home Page http://www.geocities.com/masternix/DVD.html
My List O' DVDs:
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&id=meshuga
post #25 of 43
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Did Patrick Bateman really kill?


I don't know the answer to that question, but i'm hoping you do. I just re-watched the film after getting the Killer Collection dvd for my birthday and i'm just as baffled as ever.

I checked out the IMDB looking for an answer but of course found none, so I figured I would tap the vast knowledge and intellect of the finest bunch of film lovers on the net right here in the forum. My attempt is to try to form a collective opinion on whether or not Bateman really committed the crimes in the film or if it was only his desire to committ them we were seeing.

I THINK that he really did them, but what do you think?
post #26 of 43
He didn't. It was all in his mind.

- Colton
post #27 of 43
He was such a PSYCHO he didn't really kill anyone at all. Pretty interesting film, IMHO.
post #28 of 43
I've always believed he didn't kill anyone. "Feed me a cat."
post #29 of 43
I think the title of this thread needs to amended because it would ruin the film for those that haven't watched it, but are planning to do so in the future.






Crawdaddy
post #30 of 43
Agreed. As big a spoiler as they come.

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