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The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.) - Page 94

post #2791 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
If one's goal is truly an historically accurate presentation of the DC, that would mean watching it at a theatre where it was originally shown with pre-1992 speakers. I don't say that to be facetious, rather than get back to the real issue (at least to me).

By that logic, we should just throw out any hopes of accurate presentations of all films, since hardly any of us have, say, 35mm and 70mm projectors at home. As the mission statement of HTF states, we want the "film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended." Having the original soundtrack in its original format reproduced on DVD or HDM accomplishes that goal, it's then up to the end user to play it back. Thus, with respect strictly to the goal of historically accurate presentation, a new 5.1 remix of an original 2.0 surround track, when that 2.0 track is also present on the disc, is just an extra.

Quote:
Hopefully, most of us want what we pay for. You start going down the path of what is truly 'essential' versus 'non-essential' we'd all be in cars with manual roll-up windows. If we go down the route that a botched 5.1 track can be ignored, does one make the same argument to ignore the (correct) 5.1 track on the Final Cut? I doubt it. Thus, I just don't see any reason to sugar-coat the issue at hand.

I don't see the comparison to the Final Cut. I never said that all 5.1 tracks are irrelevant. It just so happens that (as best we can tell) 2.0 surround is the original format for the DC soundtrack, but 5.1 is the original format of the Final Cut. There's no comparison.

I think the much better argument is the one you bring up about getting what we pay for. Given that the Final Cut sets hold themselves out as containing a 5.1 track for the DC, that track should be error-free. This is why I limited my prior comment to the "goal [of] historically accurate presentation," and nothing more. This doesn't mean there's no argument whatsoever in favor of the 5.1 track being corrected (or, preferrably, having been correct from the start).

Damin
post #2792 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damin J Toell
Charlie would be able to shed more light on this than I, but keeping in mind that Dolby Digital had its public debut earlier in 1992 and that the theatrical release of the DC was pretty limited (it never broke 100 theatres), odds are that a 2.0 matrixed Dolby SR track was the only option given by Warners at the time. It seems unlikely that something like a DD 5.1 or CDS 5.1 soundtrack would have been considered feasible or economical.

Damin
Was it really that limited, because it played in Lethbridge, AB (city of about 60 000 @ the time), which would NEVER get that limited a release, unless it was a situation where the same 100 prints played for 1 week engagements in various centres.
post #2793 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

uhhh, most people don't have speakers behind their front projection acoustically transparent screens. a lot of people may have FP's now, but acoustically transparent screens are still yet more rare.

therefore, having a soundtrack dump from the 35/70 original source does us no good since those mixes were for the cinema. that's why a lot of film soundtracks get remixed for HT settings with speakers to the left and right of the primary display device.
post #2794 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
Was it really that limited, because it played in Lethbridge, AB (city of about 60 000 @ the time), which would NEVER get that limited a release, unless it was a situation where the same 100 prints played for 1 week engagements in various centres.

I should have specified that it never broke 100 theatres at its single widest release point. I'm sure it played well over 100 theatres over time, just not at once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger
therefore, having a soundtrack dump from the 35/70 original source does us no good since those mixes were for the cinema. that's why a lot of film soundtracks get remixed for HT settings with speakers to the left and right of the primary display device.

As the original 1992 Dolby SR soundtrack for the DC was analog, there would be no such thing as a "dump" of that soundtrack into Dolby Digital. Given the various home video releases of the DC, I'm sure the mix was optimized for HT long ago.

Damin
post #2795 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

We're rooting for you, Sean!
post #2796 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Well if you think about it none of the 5.1 mixes on the archival disc are "unaltered" since the 70mm prints of Blade Runner were mono surround only and some stereoization has obviously been performed to the rears.
post #2797 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
Well if you think about it none of the 5.1 mixes on the archival disc are "unaltered" since the 70mm prints of Blade Runner were mono surround only and some stereoization has obviously been performed to the rears.

Do we know they were mono surround though? The stereo track was a surround matrix, after all. Why wouldn't the 70mm be?
post #2798 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike kaminski
Do we know they were mono surround though? The stereo track was a surround matrix, after all. Why wouldn't the 70mm be?
Well first of all dolby stereo tracks are surround matrix and all that means is you get two more channels off of the existing left and right (center and surround). Its basically a 4 track stereo where only two tracks are what we consider "discrete".

Now there is an easy way to tell whether or not a Dolby A-Type Baby Boom 70mm mix is mono surround or not. If you mute the center channel and dialogue is still coming out of the left and right then thats the key. Why this is the case is because the majority of 70mm mixes from the late 70's-early 80s simply used the same dolby mix except dematriced and laid on magnetically. The two additional tracks are LFE "boom" tracks and are mono dupes of each other (this was pre-subwoofer days).

However if the dialogue is coming out of the center then its what is called a split surround mix and thats true 5.1. Its also kinda rare for 80's movies since most studios didn't start using it until roughly 1987.
post #2799 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
Well if you think about it none of the 5.1 mixes on the archival disc are "unaltered" since the 70mm prints of Blade Runner were mono surround only and some stereoization has obviously been performed to the rears.

According to in70mm.com, at least, it would have had mono surrounds. Their entry for Blade Runner lacks the "SS" notation for split surrounds.

Damin
post #2800 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damin J Toell
According to in70mm.com, at least, it would have had mono surrounds. Their entry for Blade Runner lacks the "SS" notation for split surrounds.

Damin
That is true, but its important to note that in70mm has occasionally made some errors in their library listings. For instance Die Hard is clearly split yet they don't seem to think that.

However in this case they are correct.
post #2801 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Question for anybody who has a dvd-rom and the SD 4/5-disc set.

Is it just me or are the end credits (particularly the ones on black backgrounds as seen on the DC and the Mike Fenton/Jane Feinberg credit on the other two) on disc 3 interlaced? I say this because I just got a new monitor to replace my dying POS Sony and its become much more obvious.

Oh and more vertical edge enhancement than the 2006 release (which does not have this interlacing).
post #2802 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

I caught Blade Runner last night at the Castro Theatre in San Francisco. It was in 35mm on a 45-foot wide screen, and it was absolutely stunning.

It was a great crowd (200-300), and the usher said that attendance has been heavy.

Hats off to Mr. Scott and Mr. de Lauzirika for a wonderful job. Thank you for using 4K intermediates to preserve resolution. Thank you for striking prints on film. And thank you for not "fixing" things that weren't broken.

Cheers,
Jones
MOVIE THEATRE REVIEWS
post #2803 of 2829
Thread Starter 

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Wow, here's my initial post that started this monsterous thread almost six years ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz W
According to DVDFILE.com the new SE of Blade Runner has been indefinitely delayed until at least 2003 due to "pesky legal clearances". Sigh.

Looks like I may have to get the current DVD since it looks like the SE will be on Blu-Ray or whatever the next format will be, and it appears that it will be out before BR SE!

What a prophetic second paragraph, except that the Blu-ray UE came out at the same time as the DVD UE. Back then I never thought we'd get such a thorough set as the BR UE. I'm glad I was wrong.

I'm also glad that BR is no longer a title in need of serious upgrade as it was for so long on DVD.
post #2804 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

just a heads up..

blade runner is coming to sacramento. playing at the crest theatre in downtown. its starts on february 29th. I don't think its the digital version.

Jacob
post #2805 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

I finally (just now, in fact) got finished watching every single bit of material on the 5-disc BR DVD set. I got it for Christmas, and had to go through Spidey 3, Close Encounters, the Stanley Kubrick Collection and Twin Peaks before getting to this, the crown jewel. And it was worth the wait.

Charlie, it's been said multiple times and multiple places, but it can't be said enough. You've done a man's job, sir. (But are you sure you are a man? hahaha)

It is absolutely fascinating to see all the differences between the versions, particularly compared with the deleted footage. For instance, why do all versions of the film use the stolen footage of Batty's hand (from the Bradbury chase) and close up (from the Tyrell murder) for his introductory scene when that long shot of Leon walking up to him in the Vid Phon exists? There certainly were a lot of odd editorial choices made in the Theatrical Cut, that thankfully the Final Cut smoothes over.

Oddly enough, most DVD sets I watch cause me to notice a big glaring continuity error that I never noticed before (for example, Bishop's torso during the final battle in Aliens). For Blade Runner, it's when Deckard has retired Zhora and goes to grab a brew...standing some feet behind him is Rachael. The deleted scenes and shooting script explain this, but now that I know it's there I can't take my eyes off it...heh.

Anyway, I was a bit underwhelmed with the Twin Peaks set so I had my doubts about Blade Runner, but I shouldn't have. All involved did a magnificent job. DVD of the year, hands down.
post #2806 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBR
For instance, why do all versions of the film use the stolen footage of Batty's hand (from the Bradbury chase) and close up (from the Tyrell murder) for his introductory scene when that long shot of Leon walking up to him in the Vid Phon exists?


That struck me as a thematic choice. I think there was dialog in there too, something on the order of "..Time...enough." So mortality gets worked in again as Batty seems to reflect on it, thanks to the editorial choice there. I was thinking about that inserted shot of the hand, and it's some nice, sly foreshadowing...and almost becomes and image--maybe, I don't know--of clutching at all he had left (time). If I had the line right, maybe it was suggesting that--again, I don't know--any time, however much you've got, is time enough to live in it. Wait, huh? Went pretty far out on a limb on this; it'll probably break. So toss my interpretation, but I think they were goin' for themes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBR

Anyway, I was a bit underwhelmed with the Twin Peaks set so I had my doubts about Blade Runner, but I shouldn't have. All involved did a magnificent job. DVD of the year, hands down.


That set blew my mind.



--Jack
post #2807 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Yeah, "underwhelming" isn't quite the first word that pops into my mind regarding the Twin Peaks Gold Box set, especially considering the legal hell the series was in for years, and then exactly what the first Season 1 DVD set was lacking (i.e., the pilot), and how reticent David Lynch has been about extensive special features on his DVDs.

It was positively loaded by comparison (the missing S1 commentaries and DTS tracks notwithstanding, obviously). Hell, a feature-length documentary alone was enough to get me to buy the set, to say nothing of both cuts of the pilot.

Charlie absolutely knocked both the Blade Runner and Twin Peaks releases out of the park, all things considered, and both sets were among the best of 2007 for myself (and I'm sure for many others, too).
post #2808 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

OK, OK you guys. Let me explain myself.

What I meant by that comment was that I thought the Secrets From Another Place documentary was not as comprehensive as I would have liked it. That doesn't mean in any way that the set is deficient, as it knocks any run of the mill special edition out of the park (especially due to the amazing work Charlie and Co. did to get everything else). And the SFAP docu was fascinating and great in its own right, but comparable (I felt, anyway) to many other documentaries that scratch the surface of things but don't delve as deeply as you would hope.

What I meant to say was not so much bash the TP Gold Set but praise the Blade Runner set, since I felt Dangerous Days was one of the best documentaries ever produced. Ever. It is not every day that one's expectations are met and then exceeded, which is exactly what that documentary did for me. The reason why I felt "wary" of the BR set after Twin Peaks was just because BR is one of my all time favorite movies (as it is with thousands of others) and I would have been a little let down after all this time waiting for a DVD special edition to see a little 90 minute basic documentary. Charlie did not disappoint in the slightest, and I was trying to praise him and his team for that.

So I apologize if my comment sounded way too harsh on Twin Peaks, I was just trying to draw the comparison between the two the way I see it. I think the TP set is a fantastic special edition, above most others out there...but the BR set, in my mind, belongs in the DVD special editions of the Gods category or something. Hopefully that clears it up.
post #2809 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Ah, hey, it's all cool -- I can see what you were getting at now. (And I agree 100 percent with it.)
post #2810 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Does the recent sale price of the 5-disc BluRay set -- down to $20! -- indicate a clearing out of this title? I am wondering if it may mean there's going to be a reissue with the extras in HD this time and the 1992 version's 5.1 audio fixed?
post #2811 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_B
Does the recent sale price of the 5-disc BluRay set -- down to $20! -- indicate a clearing out of this title? I am wondering if it may mean there's going to be a reissue with the extras in HD this time and the 1992 version's 5.1 audio fixed?

I love an optimist. But the chances of them going back to put extras in high def are slim and none.

As for the 5.1 audio problem ... my viewpoint is that Charles de Lauzirika has left us hanging. He was around for the hype and applause but his follow-up has been non-existent since January.
post #2812 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
... my viewpoint is that Charles de Lauzirika has left us hanging. He was around for the hype and applause but his follow-up has been non-existent since January.
That's ridiculous. He doesn't run Warner's home video department so he probably has almost no say in what they will and will not do relating to the problem. And no one is going to burn their bridges by posting that it's Warners' fault.
post #2813 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
my viewpoint is that Charles de Lauzirika has left us hanging. He was around for the hype and applause but his follow-up has been non-existent since January.

Charlie is probably working on something that will knock us off our feet again.
post #2814 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
That's ridiculous. He doesn't run Warner's home video department so he probably has almost no say in what they will and will not do relating to the problem. And no one is going to burn their bridges by posting that it's Warners' fault.

No. What's ridiculous is your spin on things.

No one is asking for someone to blame, so why introduce that to the discussion? Everyone KNOWS it's up to the WHV to correct this so you've contributed nothing but noise.

Charlie was asked by another poster (in January) about the 5.1 mix.

Charlie is the one who said he had a lot to say about it but hasn't.

The Good is a Blade Runner Boxset that delivered a lot of terrific content.

The Bad is WHV not stepping up and making this right and doing it quickly.

The Ugly is oh so predictable posts that try to blow smoke up your a$$ when any 'player' in Hollywood posts on this board.
post #2815 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
Charlie is the one who said he had a lot to say about it but hasn't.
Yeah and that indicates that he can not talk about it.
post #2816 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Im thinking with 5 versions of the movie to watch, and now for under $20, why cant we all just be happy.....nooooo, someone has to piss in the lemonade.
post #2817 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Can someone fill me in on the 5.1 issue with the DC? Is it just a copy of the 5.1 mix for the final cut or does it have other issues?
post #2818 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Schatz
Can someone fill me in on the 5.1 issue with the DC? Is it just a copy of the 5.1 mix for the final cut or does it have other issues?

There's partial music from the workprint in the love scene. Some have said that the background music in Deckard's intro is the alternate version, and that theres a glitch in the music transition to the credits, but as I and some others have proposed, this does not appear to be the case.
The strange part is that, while the "Kowalski" line can be maybe chalked up to accident in that the Final Cut soundtrack got mixed up, the workprint music being used but only in one tiny section indicates intentional design. Theres no way anyone was "forced" to use this music due to condition of the original elements because all other versions--INCLUDING the Final Cut--use the regular music. And the Workprint has other alternate music in that sequence--but the DC otherwise plays out exactly as it should. And its not like you could just accidentally put the Final Cut or Workprint soundtrack to the DC because they won't sync up due to cut differences. So its some form of deliberate design, it would seem. If its somehow accidental, the explanation would have to be very convoluted indeed. Very strange. Not that big a deal, really, since the 2.0 track is there and a 5.1 DC track is itself not a "preservation" of anything since it never had a surround version to begin with so its going to be a new creation any way you cut it, but it's curious, especially since Charlie seems to have some thoughts on the matter but has yet to divulge what these are. Maybe someone decided that since the DC would have to have a newly created 5.1 mix they would take some personal creative liberties? I don't know. Its purely guesswork. I hate to drag out this debacle again.
post #2819 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
Im thinking with 5 versions of the movie to watch, and now for under $20, why cant we all just be happy.....nooooo, someone has to piss in the lemonade.

Yeah but I just want to know if I should pick up another or two now for $20 as gifts, or if I should save my money to put towards a better (all HD) version, if there's a a better version coming.
post #2820 of 2829

Re: The official BLADE RUNNER SE thread. (Check out page 8 and #790.)

Rich

Those are a lot of unnecessary shots that you are taking at Charlie.

I am going to politely ask you to stop.

I have already discussed your comments with Charles who would
have liked to address your concerns in public but cannot. It's very
difficult for him to defend his position without violating non disclosure
agreements.

What I am saying here is that some of the things you have
been posting concerning Mr. de Lauzirika are sometimes inaccurate.
The explanations you want cannot always be given without involving
other companies and individuals that he is unable to discuss.

Charles has been a member of this forum for many years and has
actively participated in threads like these. When he ceases to do
it could mean several things: he is busy, he cannot discuss the
question at hand, or he is being treated rather rudely.

I am confident that Charles will return to this thread when he
has something to say. In the meantime, I would hope that some
of these rude posts will cease immediately.
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